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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Western Front (1944-1945) > Romanian troops during battle of Budapest 1944-45|
|Posted by: Musashi October 29, 2004 12:11 pm|
I and my two friends make a mod for Close Combat V on the battle of Budapest in 1944-45. I was the main supporter of including Romanian troops to this mod. I derided my friends they hadn't know about Romanian involvement in that battle and I told them Romanian-Hungarian fights had been particularly fierce and tough.
Besides I felt bad when some people started to make a mod on battle of Berlin in 1945 and they didn't include Polish troops.
We need as many informations as you are able to provide about Romanian troops during this battle. We will consult with you regarding the strength of troops, morale, armament, etc. We need also photos of Budapest to make the maps of this city.
A few questions put by me were answered by Victor a few months ago on Axis History Forum.
We need sounds of Romanian rifles, machine guns, submachine guns, pistols, etc.
I bullied my friends, they hadn't done anything for this mod for a few months, but we had been focusing on our "national" mod on battle of Monte Cassino.
|Posted by: dragos October 29, 2004 05:44 pm|
If I remeber well, CC included MG.30(t) which is the same with ZB-30 light machinegun
For the ZB-24 rifles, you can use the sound of Kar98k, because the two weapons were similar.
|Posted by: Carol I October 29, 2004 09:18 pm|
|This topic was also discussed in http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=887.|
|Posted by: Daniel S. October 29, 2004 10:32 pm|
| So, Chris, let's continue our talking from Axis History Forum...
Until now we have:
1. ZB VZ 24 rifle - Kar98k sound
2. ZB 30 LMG - MG 30(t) from CC III or British Bren from VetBob (or Gold-Juno-Sword) sounds
3.ZB 53 machinegun - here I don't know for sure but in case you don't find anything you can use MG 34 sound
4.Beretta M34 pistol - Walther P38 sound
5.Orita M41 SMG and Beretta M38 SMG - MP40 sound
That's all you need about small arms. If other members of the forum have better ideas I would enjoy. But let's see what weapons had a Romanian infantry squad (Grupa de lupta or Grupa de infanterie) of 1944-1945. We see its organization from this site but I don't know (just supose) the weapons eachone had:
1.Comandantul de grupa/Squad Leader - 1* Orita/Beretta M38 (1 man)
2.Echipa de puscasi-mitraliori/LMG Squad - 1* ZB 30 + 3 ZB 24 (4 men)
3.Echipa de puscasi-grenadieri/Grenadier Squad -5 ZB 24 (5 men)
Total: 10 men
*Leader and LMG had a sidearm - Berreta M34 pistol (I don't add other sidearms to don't fill Weapons file with too many weap.)
If others members know more they are welcome.
|Posted by: dragos October 29, 2004 10:46 pm|
|Romanian soldiers street fighting in Budapest|
|Posted by: Daniel S. October 30, 2004 01:53 pm|
|Regarding this topic, it's a pitty that this site doesn't have any refferences to the Western campaigns of the Romanian army. The old sites like Dutch Helmet and Victor's site (I don't remeber its name) had also the West front battles in Operation section of the site. Maybe in the future...|
|Posted by: Musashi October 30, 2004 02:19 pm|
| Thank you
Could you provide me the information who was a commander of 2nd Infantry Division, 19th Infantry Division and 9th Cavalry Division with the photos of these commanders?
What was the difference between dorobanti and infantry regiment?
Which of those three Romanian divisions was the most effective?
What was experience and morale of the Romanian soldiers from those divisions comparing to other Romanian divisions (which did not take part in this battle) and Soviet divisions BEFORE the battle? Having read a book on this battle I know the morale of Romanian soldiers was high, but how about the experience/training?
For example I know Romanian mountain divisions were very effective during the Barbarossa. However what was it in Budapest? Were these units experienced? Had they full supply?
Were any Romanian air units engaged in this battle?
|Posted by: dragos October 30, 2004 05:35 pm|
You can find the complete list of Romanian division commanders here:
Regarding experience, all of these units have fought on the eastern front.
|Posted by: dragos October 30, 2004 05:37 pm|
Sorry, the dates in the list seem to be broken. We will try to fix it as soon as possible.
Edited: It has been fixed.
|Posted by: Daniel S. October 30, 2004 09:29 pm|
| 1.The commanders of:
-2nd Inf Div: Brigadier General/General de brigada Mihail Voicu
-19th Inf Div: Brigadier General/General de brigada Mihail Lacatusu
-9th Cav Div: Colonel Dumitru Neferu ( 31 October 1944 - 2 December 1944 ),
Colonel Vasile Botezatu ( 3 December 1944 - 17 December 1944 ) and Brigadier General Ilie Antonescu ( 18 December 1944 - 12 May 1945 ). It depends on the frame time you will use in the game.
I don't have photos of these commmanders, maybe someone here can help.
2. I would add that "dorobanti" was a 19th century traditional name for infantry. No differences in OoB.
3. The units were made of veterans, not only for the fact they fought on Eastern front but also due to their Western front experience. We must not forget they reached Budapest after fighting in Transilvania and Eastern Hungary. I think the morale was higher than average Soviet infantry (not including Guard Divisions) and below fanatical SS units.
|Posted by: Dénes December 31, 2004 05:12 am|
| In your opinion, why was the Rumanian 7th Corps ordered by the Soviet Commander of the 2nd Ukrainian Front to cease fighting on January 15, 1945 and move to another location, just two days before Pest (the Eastern part of Budapest) was occupied by Soviet forces?
Several possibilities come to my mind...
Was this ever officially explained in Rumanian history books?
P.S. This is an important issue to me, and detailed and timely responses are appreciated.
|Posted by: Victor December 31, 2004 09:38 am|
| During the first decade of November 1944, that is before the 7th Corps entered Budapest, lt. gen. Macici, CO of the 1st Army, asked the Soviet command to bring the 4th and 7th Corps (his two corps) in a common sector as they had been separated by the Soviets and he practically lacked direct command of his own army.
The reply from marshal Malinovsky was, several times, that the issue would be annalyzed shortly. Only in early January 1945, when the 7th Corps was engaged in hard fights inside Budapest, did he adress it and decided to move the corps to the present Hungarian-Slovakian border, where the 4th Corps was located. However Macici intervened and protested and the Soviet command replied that it was a "communication error". Soon after this the condition of the Romanian troops in Budapest worsened and made Macici report back to the General Staff that he was under the impression that the Romanian units were "destined for destruction". There was a report dated back to 23 December 1944 of teh 3rd Section of teh 1st Army's staff that stated that in the current rythm of operations, in which Romanian troops were not allowed any rest, they will surely loose their combat capabilities very soon.
On 12 January 1945 Malinovsky showed very much discontent on the fact that the Romanian troops were progressing slower than the neighbouring units and that if the "Romanians do not want to fight, the Red Army is big enough to replace them". He also added that many Romanian officers had expressed their dislike of continuing the fighting side-by-side with the Soviets. To this Macici replied that the only discontents were those regarding the Soviet abuses and the unclear situation of NW Transylvania and there was never the issue of not continuing the fight.
Three days later Malinovsky reassigned the 7th Corps, as it was only 2 km away from the Danube and after loosing 29% of its men in Operation Budapest.
|Posted by: Dénes January 05, 2005 04:13 am|
| I try to piece together the list of commanders of the Regiments assigned to the 7th Army Corps in late 1944, as well as the respective chiefs of staff.
Here is what I found so far:
2nd Infantry Division (C/O Brig. Gen. Romulus Stănescu, then Brig. Gen. Mihail Voicu)
1st Dorobanti Regiment Dolj (Col. Virgil Rusu)
26th Dorobanti Regiment Rovine
31st Dorobanti Regiment Calafat
9th Artillery Regiment
14th Artillery Regiment (Col. Cristache Zamfirescu)
19th Infantry Division (C/O Brig. Gen. Mihail Lăcătuşu, Chief of Staff Lt. Col. Ioan Zăgănescu)
94th Infantry Regiment (Col. Ioan Ionescu)
95th Infantry Regiment Imparatul Traian (Col. Ştefan Mihăilescu)
96th Infantry Regiment (Col. Mihail Gheorghiu, then Lt. Col. Gavrilă Cosma)
37th Artillery Regiment
42nd Artillery Regiment (Col. Dumitru Danubianu)
9th Cavalry Division (Col. Dumitru Neferu, then Col. Vasile Botezatu, then Brig. Gen. Ilie Antonescu, Chief of Staff Lt. Col. Ioan Davidescu)
5th Motorized Rosiori Regiment Imparatul Nicolae al II-lea
3rd Rosiori Regiment (Lt. Col. Vasile Podhorschi)
13th Calarasi Regiment
6th Horse Artillery Regiment (Col. Dumitru Neferu)
Any chance to complete the missing commanders?
Answers until Friday evening would be much appreciated.
|Posted by: Victor January 05, 2005 10:26 am|
| Other units that belonged to the 7th Corps and their commanders:
1st Heavy Artillery Regiment - CO col. Alexandru Dobriceanu
1st Battalion/36th AT Regiment - CO Maj. Alexandru Ivanov
|Posted by: dragos January 05, 2005 06:09 pm|
| 7th Corps Artillery - Col. Ilie Iliescu
7th Heavy Artillery Regiment - Col. Vasile Danacu
9th Artillery Regiment - Col. Gheorghe Zamfirescu
|Posted by: Dénes January 05, 2005 06:53 pm|
| Thanks for the additions, Victor and Dragos.
I don't see the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment in the OOB given above. Was it really part of the 7th Corps?
|Posted by: dragos January 05, 2005 07:27 pm|
|1st and 7th Heavy Artillery Regiments were part of the 7th Army Corps' artillery.|
|Posted by: Dénes January 06, 2005 01:21 am|
| In the meantime, I also found the following:
The 7th Army Corps' Engineer (geniu) unit, commanding officer Lt. Col. Câmpeanu. Any subordinated engineer units?
The 7th Army Corps' Operations Bureau (birou operatii), commanding officer Cpt. Balanescu. First name?
|Posted by: Dénes January 06, 2005 03:38 am|
| The more I dig into the actions of the 7th Army Corps in late 1944, the more confusion arises and the more contradictory information surfaces.
For example, in a document dated Dec. 1, 1944, Regimentul 5 rosiori was under command of Divizia 1 cavalerie moto, along with Regimentele 2 and 1 (the latter still in the rear area). If true, which was the 3rd regiment of the Divizia 9 cavalerie?
It now appears to me that every infantry/cavalry division in the 7th Army Corps had three infantry/cavalry regiments but only one (not two) artillery regiment attached, not two. Could this theory be valid?
Additionally to the artillery regiments of the individual divisions, there were (at least) two heavy artillery regiments under direct command of the corps (the 1st and the 7th), plus additional sub-units. True?
More questions that await answers...
|Posted by: Victor January 06, 2005 08:16 am|
|From 1943, the 9th Cavalry Division was made up of the: 3rd Rosiori, 9th and 13th Calarasi Regiments. The 5th Rosiori had been assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division.|
|Posted by: Dénes January 06, 2005 01:43 pm|
| Then the table on page 228 in the 'Armata Romana' book is faulty. It lists the 5th Rosiori Moto Regiment as part of the 7th Army Corps.
How about the other issues listed above?
|Posted by: Dénes January 07, 2005 03:15 am|
| More questions regarding the 7th Army Corps in late 1944:
- how was an infantry brigade incadrated into the order of battle of an infantry division? For example, there was Brigada 19 infanterie, headed by a Colonel, within Divizia 19 infanterie.
- have you heard of the following high-ranking officers: Col. Botezatu and Lt.-Col. Grunau [sic!]? If yes, what were their positions?
- where were the 19th and 119th Artillery Battalions assigned to?
The most important details to find out though would be the names of the commanding officers of the following cavalry regiments: 26 Dorobanţi, 31 Dorobanţi, 9 Călăraşi and 13 Călăraşi.
|Posted by: Dénes January 10, 2005 01:58 am|
| A rather comprehensive source mentions Regimentul 9. Roşiori 'R.E.' (Regina Elisabeta?) as part of Divizia 9 cavalerie, within Corpul 7 armată, instead of Regimentul 13 Călăraşi.
Can someone confirm/inform this info? I personally believe Reg. 13 c. is the correct version.
|Posted by: dragos January 10, 2005 06:29 pm|
As Victor said, during that time frame, the 9th Cavalry Division was made of 9th and 13th Calarasi Regiments, and 3rd Rosiori Regiment.
|Posted by: dragos January 10, 2005 06:40 pm|
It seems you are talking about the divisional anti-tank batteries of the 19th Infantry Division.
|Posted by: Dénes January 10, 2005 09:21 pm|
| There was an interesting comment made by a professional historian who read my study on the 7th Army Corps' activity in the battle for Budapest.
He noted that compared to other ground armies, combat losses of Rumanian officers seems much lighter. He asked for an explanation for this phenomenon.
What is your opinion?
|Posted by: Victor January 10, 2005 09:27 pm|
|The casualties were at approximately one third of the initial strength before Operation Budapest began. I wouldn't rate them as "light".|
|Posted by: dragos January 10, 2005 09:39 pm|
Denes refered to officer losses. I don't believe at Budapest they were higher than at Odessa, for example, where the losses in officers amounted to 22% of the initial strength.
|Posted by: Dénes January 10, 2005 10:10 pm|
| Yes, the emphasis was on the losses of officers compared to NCOs and Privates.
Can you check out the data on this particular topic on other combat engagements of the Rumanian Army?
Tonight I will post the statistics for the Budapest Operation.
|Posted by: Dénes January 11, 2005 01:29 am|
| Here are the details of the overall manpower losses of the 19th Infantry Division and the 9th Cavalry Division, for the period when the combat was done inside Budapest (Dec. 31, 1944 - Jan. 15, 1945). I have no detailed info on day-by-day losses of the 2nd Infantry Division. Also, soldiers missing in action and prisoners of war are apparently not included in the official statistics.
Killed: 13 officers (5 due to an aerial bomb = indirect combat loss), 7 NCOs and 269 troops = 289 men [2.82% officers (excluding the 5 killed by bomb), 2.46% NCOs and 94.72% troops]
Wounded: 53 officers, 34 NCOs, 1322 troops = 1409 men [3.76% officers, 2.41% NCOs, 93.82% troops]
Indeed, it appears that the losses of officers and NCOs in urban warfare are rather small compared to those of the troops.
A comparison to other campaigns would be beneficial in trying to solve this issue.
|Posted by: Dénes January 11, 2005 01:57 am|
| The same statistics for the first half of the Army's first campaign (June 22-July 31, 1941):
Dead: 5.16% officers, 1.97% NCOs, 92.87% troops.
Wounded: 4.22% officers, 1.54% NCOs, 94.2% troops.
MIA: 0.92% officers, 0.46% NCOs, 98.61% troops.
Total Army personnel losses between June 22, 1941 and August 23, 1944 (so-called Eastern Front):
Dead: 4.16% officers, 2.35% NCOs, 93.49% troops.
Wounded: 3.39% officers, 1.99% NCOs, 94.6% troops.
MIA: 1.93% officers, 1.74% NCOs, 96.34% troops.
Total Army personnel losses between August 24, 1944 and May 12, 1945 (so-called Western Front):
Dead: 3.79% officers, 3.30% NCOs, 92.91% troops.
Wounded: 3.60% officers, 3.34% NCOs, 93.06% troops.
MIA: 1.52% officers, 1.86% NCOs, 96.62% troops.
It appears that indeed, the percentage of dead officers and NCOs in the battle of Budapest is below the average, while of the number of wounded only the NCOs fared better than the average.
|Posted by: Dénes January 31, 2005 09:45 pm|
| Below is a map (in Hungarian), which depicts the advance of Rumanian troops inside Pest, during the closing stage of the Battle of Budapest, between 4-15 Jan. 1945.
The map will illustrate a book dealing with the Siege of Budapest, currently under work, by a publishing house in Budapest.
If there is interest, I can post two other maps detailing the previous advances of Rumanian troops in Hungary (between late Oct.-late Dec. 1944).
P.S. The maps are copyrighted.
|Posted by: dragos January 31, 2005 10:06 pm|
|A detailed map of the artillery positions of the Romanian 7th Army Corps (from Istoria artilerie romane - 1977)|
|Posted by: Dénes January 31, 2005 10:31 pm|
| Obviously, the date in the centre of the map is erroneous. It's not Jan. 15 (the last combat day for the Rumanian troops), but it should rather be Jan. 7 or so.
Also, the map's legends mentions only German troops and completely omits the Hungarian ones - the bulk of Pest's defenders.
|Posted by: dragos January 31, 2005 10:43 pm|
The map focuses on Romanian artillery, and the book is from 1977
|Posted by: Dénes June 23, 2005 12:36 am|
| Finally, I received a complimentary copy of the book dealing with the siege of Budapest in 1944/1945, published last February in Budapest, titled 'Az elsodort város' (The Swept-Away City) I co-authored.
My study included in the book focuses on the activity of the Rumanian 7th Corps in the 'Budapest Operation' (October 1944-January 1945), giving a detailed, day-by-day picture of the heavy fights inside the city (Dec. 31, 1944 - Jan. 15, 1945).
The following posts will contain scans of various pages of the study that might be interpreted easier by non-Hungarian readers and also might be of wider interest.
If anyone needs further clarifications and short translations, just let me know.
|Posted by: Dénes June 23, 2005 12:38 am|
| Excerpt of the opening page ('Participation of the Rumanian 7th Corps in the Occupation of Pest').
|Posted by: Dénes June 23, 2005 12:45 am|
| Order of Battle of the Rumanian 7th Corps during the Budapest Operation (Oct. 1944-Jan. 1945).
|Posted by: Dénes June 23, 2005 12:54 am|
| List of Rumanian officers and NCOs fallen during the siege of Budapest (the second scans contains the notes to the numbers included in the main table).
|Posted by: Dénes June 23, 2005 12:59 am|
| Cumulative table of day-by-day losses (n.a. = no data available).
|Posted by: Carol I June 24, 2005 10:36 pm|
| According to the numbers posted by Dénes, during the battle for Budapest the Romanian units suffered 1698 casualties (289 killed + 1409 wounded) for two of the three divisions involved in operations. Assuming about the same incidence of casualties for the third division, the total losses of the Romanian units amounted to about 2500-3000. At the same time, other sources mention that the Seventh Romanian Army Corps suffered more than 10000 casualties during the siege of Budapest, i.e. more than three times the number inferred from Dénes' sources.
Which of these two numbers of casualties is closest to the truth, 3000 or 10000?
|Posted by: Dénes June 25, 2005 01:38 am|
| The number you are referring to (more precisely 10,708 casualitites, i.e. KIA, WIA, MIA and POW) happened during the entire 'Budapest Operation' C7A was involved in (not only the actual 16-day siege of the capital) and occured in about three months.
The overall loss statistics for the 16 days of fierce combat inside Budapest stands at 107 officers, 124 NCOs and 5299 privates, which amounts to approx. 20% of the total number of soldiers who took part in combat.
The above table was compiled from the daily loss returns of the said divisions, included in the daily combat reports.
It has to be noted that for some reason MIA and POW were not included in the original loss statistics (although photographs show that Rumanian soldiers did fall POW during the battle for Budapest). Also, losses of units directly subordinated to C7A (see Order of Battle) usually were not included in the above daily statistics, due to incomplete data (compare, for example, the namely losses of officers and NCOs with the overall statistics for January 15). They appear only in the right column, which independently sums up the total losses of all units subordinated to C7A.
|Posted by: Carol I June 25, 2005 02:58 pm|
|Thanks for the clarification. The new numbers cast another light both on the losses and on the events.|
|Posted by: Victor June 25, 2005 06:30 pm|
|Carol I, Operation Budapest started in 29 October 1944 and the 7th Cops was involved also in the fights in the city's outskirts, not only inside it.|
|Posted by: Carol I June 25, 2005 07:17 pm|
I previously thought that the 10000 casualties referred only to the short siege of Budapest and thus I wondered whether this number was an error or an exaggeration. But after Dénes came with the further explanations I got the numbers right.
|Posted by: mabadesc June 27, 2005 02:15 pm|
| I found a book in a bookstore named "The Siege of Budapest". I didn't take down the name of the authors, but it was written by 2 Hungarian historians.
I looked at the alphabetical index at the end of the book - there was no mention of the Romanian Army or anything related to Romania at all. Same thing throughout the book, including maps, although I didn't look at it too closely.
|Posted by: Dénes June 27, 2005 02:41 pm|
Just a small correction. 'Operation Budapest', which started at the end of October, was launched from the Tisza River's line, rather far away frmo the Hungarian capital.
The aforementioned 10K+ losses of C7A were counted from that date and position.
If anyone is interested, I can upload the map showing the first stage of the operation.
Mabadesc, the activity of Rumanian troops in the siege of Budapest in 1944/1945 is not well known in Hungary, even in academic circles. That's why my study hopefully fills a void in this respect.
|Posted by: petru July 22, 2005 02:09 pm|
| Krisztian Ungvary "The siege of Budapest" (printed 2005). The original English edition of this book is entitled Battle for Budapest: 100 Days in World War II and was published by I. B. Tauris & Co Ltd.
Pretty good work. It reminds me of the books of David Glantz. However the author uses mostly Hungarian and German sources, and very few soviet sources (and no romanian sources). One could find a picture with gen. Sova that was posted on the forum in a previous thread. It is taken in the streets of Pesta and depitcs a romanian loading a morter, while gen Sova is standing behind him. The caption of the figure has the same error as the one posted on the formum
"Lieutenant-Colonel (sic!) Nicolae Sova, commander of the Romanian 7th Army Corps (far left) with his soldiers in central Budapest"
I will put some paragraphs regarding the romanian 7th corp a little later.
|Posted by: petru July 22, 2005 02:37 pm|
From Krisztian Ungvary " the siege of Budapest"
|Posted by: SiG October 31, 2005 08:36 pm|
I would be interested in seeing this map.
|Posted by: Petre September 02, 2021 07:20 am|
| The 7th Army Corps (rom) in Budapest.
|Posted by: adicontakt September 06, 2021 04:12 pm|
| Great , like always , Petre
|Posted by: Dénes September 10, 2021 02:15 pm|
| Great document. Many thanks, Petre!
If you will find a continuation of this topic, please share it with us.
|Posted by: Petre September 12, 2021 05:17 am|
| Source https://historyrussia.org/
Liberation of Europe.
Report of rom. 7th Army Corps about fighting actions, night of 1/2 dec. 1944
2 dec. 1944.
1. În cursul noptii 1/2.12.44. slabe actiuni ale focului infanteriei de ambele parti. Artileria inamicului a actionat pe sectoarele Div.2 inf si Div.9 cav, mai ales în a doua parte a noptii. Câteva lovituri de artilerie grea a inamicului asupra noastra dinspre Vacszentlaszlo.
2. Unitatile noastre au mentinut permanent contactul cu inamicul prin actiuni de cercetare.
3. Pierderi si trofee.
- Div.2 inf = 1 sdt ranit; capturati 8 prizonieri din R.18 inf hu.
- Div.9 cav = 2 sld raniti; capturati 2 prizonieri din R.6 inf hu.
Col. (?)Serb (semnat)
ZAMO RF, Fond 341, Opis 5312, Dosar 578, p. 140.