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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Eastern Front (1941-1944) > RRA in Stalingrad|
|Posted by: 88mm July 08, 2003 01:51 pm|
|Were the romanian units cought in the encerclement at Stalingrad under the direct comand of the germans?|
|Posted by: Victor July 09, 2003 08:33 am|
|I do not really understand your question. The units caught up in the encirclement were divisions. It was natural for them to be subordinated to an army command.|
|Posted by: 88mm July 15, 2003 08:13 am|
|My ouestion was about the direct command of this divisions. Was it romanian or german. Of course the commander of a division was a romanian officer, but who was his superior. It's OK if you just tell me if this divisions were under von Paulus? command or what.|
|Posted by: Victor July 19, 2003 10:27 am|
|They were under the direct command of gen. Tataranu, the CO of the 20th Division. He was subordinated to the German 4th Corps, (CO gen. Jaenecke), which was subordinated to von Paulus.|
|Posted by: ^All^ September 19, 2004 11:36 am|
|What was the number of Romanian soldiers caught in the encirclement at Stalingrad? And how many did manage to escape the encirclement and how many vere made POW?|
|Posted by: Victor September 19, 2004 11:41 am|
|Apparently only 2-3,000 of those captured inside Stalingrad at the end of the battle were Romanians.|
|Posted by: ^All^ September 19, 2004 01:05 pm|
|Isn't there the number off the whole Romanian troups encircled at Stalingrad?|
|Posted by: dragos September 19, 2004 01:35 pm|
| The figures for the Romanian troops in the Battle of Stalingrad are:
Participating troops: 253,947
|Posted by: Victor September 19, 2004 02:31 pm|
| ^All^ the figures posted by dragos are for the entire battle, not only those encircled.
Read here for more details: http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=9&language=en
The Romanian army lost 158,854 men (dead, wounded and missing) between 19
November 1942 and 7 January 1943.
|Posted by: ^All^ September 19, 2004 02:35 pm|
|Thanks for your help and information. :cheers:|
|Posted by: stephen brezinski September 19, 2004 09:58 pm|
| I am sure that it is just "Paulus", not "Von" Paulus. This is a habit that started years ago and has been corrected in recent histroy accounts.
|Posted by: Dani September 20, 2004 11:05 am|
| It seems that it was only Paulus and not "Von" Paulus. I checked on feldgrau on 6th Army: http://www.feldgrau.com/AOK.php?ID=6
|Posted by: Benoit Douville February 14, 2005 12:56 am|
| Is it true that there was hatred and animosity between Germans and Romanians at Stalingrad or it is only a cliché?
|Posted by: C-2 February 14, 2005 07:07 pm|
| Some vets I talked with,were very angry about German atitude.
A vet pilot told me that the German Ju 87 that they use to protect day after day on the skies of Stalingrad sudenly disapeard one day,and an hour later the airfield was attacked by Russian forces....
|Posted by: dragos February 14, 2005 07:27 pm|
"The Romanian-German Confidence Crisis during the Stalingrad Battle"
|Posted by: Victor February 14, 2005 07:35 pm|
You mean among the troops caught in the encirclement in the city or in general?
|Posted by: Benoit Douville February 15, 2005 12:18 am|
I appreciate the article that you gave me to read.
I mean both, in the encirclement at Stalingrad and in general also.
|Posted by: Fratello February 18, 2005 08:27 pm|
| A very good book about Romanian Army at Stalingrad is "ROMÂNII LA STALINGRAD" by Adrian Pandea, Ion Pavelescu and Eftimie Ardeleanu. This book was published in 1992 by Editura Militară. After my opinon is one of the best book about the tragedy of Romanian Army at Stalingrad.
Below is the fron cover of this book
|Posted by: Fratello February 18, 2005 08:33 pm|
|Posted by: ^All^ February 18, 2005 09:08 pm|
|From where can we buy this book? It seems pretty interesting reading material.|
|Posted by: dragos February 18, 2005 09:35 pm|
|I found one in the antiquarian bookshop of the "Noi" library, near "Dalles" in Bucharest.|
|Posted by: Fratello February 18, 2005 09:39 pm|
Really I don't know but now is very hard to get this it. This book contains many documents about the situation of Romanian Army at Stalingrad.
You can see below a short part of documents list from this book
|Posted by: Fratello February 18, 2005 09:43 pm|
|And here is the contents of this book|
|Posted by: Florin February 19, 2005 04:11 am|
| I heard a story about a camp for prisoners built by the Soviets in the winter of 1942-1943. When the camp started to function, inside there were tens of thousands of Romanian and Italian prisoners.
When the spring of 1943 finally arrived, 6 or 7 were still alive. Not 6 or 7 thousands... 6 or 7 men!
The teller of the story was one of the 6 or 7 survivers...
|Posted by: Victor February 19, 2005 06:48 am|
|The number given by Krivosheev for dead Romanian POWs is 40,000 out of 201,800.|
|Posted by: Barbosu February 19, 2005 10:57 pm|
| I red today a link from Romanian Defense Minsiter where are published the numbers and locations of Romanian militaries (POW and KIA) dead in other countries.
In ourdays Russian Federation there are almost 16.000 deads as POW and over 1800 KIA.
For example: River Don Zone: 1495 KIA 4298 POW dead
These are official figures with burrial places as gave by Russian authorities.
check this link (only in Romanian):
Anyway, I knew that many prisoners were dead, I was expecting big numbers but tens of thousands never. And how did they died in war time: working, hunger, ilness or shot?
After the war Russians put them to work in mines or other extreme conditions and they worked till their death.
A friend of mine remembers that Soljenitzn claims in one of his books to have found in the goulags, in the 70's, german and romanian prisoners. It seems that among them there were POW from WWII. Does anyone know something on this?
|Posted by: C-2 February 20, 2005 06:28 pm|
|I have this book.|
|Posted by: dragos April 05, 2005 06:30 am|
20th Infantry Division, having lost most of the heavy weapons and supply services, has been subordinated to, and supplyed by the German IV Corps.
1st Cavalry Division entered on 22 November under the command of the German VII Corps. On 24 November, under the command of XIV Panzer Corps. On 30 November, 7 companies of the 1st Cavalry Division were assigned to defend the front between the 376th and 44th German Infantry Divisions. Between 2 and 10 December, gen. Romulus Dimitriu organized 11 batlte-worthy groups and 18 labor and horse-drawn transport services from the rest of the 1st Cavalry Division, that were distributed to 15 German divisions and the General [Hans] Hube Group and LI Army Corps. Colonel Voicu Group was also split among these German units.
|Posted by: Ruy Aballe April 05, 2005 05:10 pm|
Could you please post a review of this book, with full details, at the review thread?
Thanks in advance.
|Posted by: C-2 April 05, 2005 07:08 pm|
Chapter 1.From neutrality to war.The campain of 41
Chapter2 The year 1942-"a real bisectix of the war.The developments on dif.military theateres of operations.
Chapter 3.Rom polit.and milit situation during the first part of 1942.
4. Operaton Stalingrad and its problems;
The main milit actions on the ways of acces to Stalin.
The military geografhic analysis of the ground.
The project of the establoishment of army group Don.
5.The 3rd Rom arm at the don's elbow.
6.The 4rt Rom arm in the Kalmuck steppe.
8.Thwe defence op of tye 3rd Rom army.in the Don's elbow.
9. The def in the Kalmuk steppe.
11 Rom-Germ headdquarters relations during the battle of Staling.
|Posted by: Ruy Aballe April 05, 2005 08:15 pm|
| Thanks C-2. I was also asking details such as the publishing house, the ISBN and the like. As for the authors and the title, we can use your scan of the cover. There's also a review thread elsewhere in this forum (in the "Romanian Army at War" section), if you want to post a text about the book and/or any additional details.
At least judging from the cover design, I suppose the title must recent.
|Posted by: C-2 April 06, 2005 07:28 pm|
| Editura "Ion Cristoiu" S.A
|Posted by: Ruy Aballe April 06, 2005 07:48 pm|
| Thanks, I have all the needed data now.
|Posted by: Petre May 01, 2016 06:06 pm|
| Book : From Moscow up to Berlin.
Articles and essays, military correspondence, 1947.
( … )
... Trupele Frontului de Stalingrad au executat o cercetare atentă a inamicului. Când generalului român Dimitriu, Comandantul Div.20 inf, luat prizonier, i s-a prezentat la discuţii o hartă întocmită de cercetaşii sovietici şi i s-a cerut să precizeze poziţia actuală a diviziei sale, acesta uimit a răspuns că cercetarea a prezentat situaţia mai precis decât harta operativă de la statul său major.
Comandamentul sovietic a determinat corect punctele slabe din apărarea inamicului şi a concentrat acolo loviturile nimicitoare. Aşa de exemplu, pe sectorul Div.20 inf. române pregătirea de artilerie a nimicit aproape complet batalionul de geniu, aflat în apărare şi prin breşa deschisă au intrat tancurile grele. Ele au ieşit pe poziţiile de tragere ale Reg. 40 artilerie al lui Dimitriu şi, cum a declarat generalul român, «n-au rămas întregi nici roţile, nu doar tunurile». Un alt grup de tancuri, pătrunse prin breşă, au atacat din spate două regimente ale Div.20 şi, cum a spus acelaşi Dimitriu, din regimentele lui «s-a ales praful». Când i s-a cerut la interogatoriu să precizeze înţelesul acestor vorbe, generalul a răspuns : «Asta înseamnă că regimentele mele parcă nici n-ar fi fost».
Întreg acest tablou a fost observat de vecinul lui Dimitriu — Comandantul Div. 297 inf. germane, generalmajor von Drebber. Acesta a descris incidentul în cuvintele : «o rupere de front rusească». Drebber a văzut tancurile ruşilor înaintând, ocolind frontul grupării germane. Tancurile s-au mişcat cu îndrăzneală, iar manevra lor de învăluire era aproape imparabilă. Evident, comandamentul german nici n-avea aici cu ce să contraatace. Oricum, Div. 297 germană a primit ordinul : pliaţi flancul, treceţi în defensivă.
Armata 64 (sov.), Consiliul Militar,
31 ian. 1943 :
Din dimineaţa zilei de 31.01.43 generalfeldmarschall von Paulus împreună cu membrii St. major s-au aflat în Casa Comitetului Executiv (în centrul Stalingradului), cu o apărare puternică. În cursul luptelor clădirea a fost împresurată de subunităţi ale Brig. 38 Inf.Moto, sub conducerea nemijlocită a locţiitorului politic al Cdt. Brig., locot.col. L.A. Vinokur.
După ce clădirea a fost înconjurată, aghiotantul personal al lui von Paulus a venit cu solicitarea pentru purtarea de negocieri.
Pentru negocieri au veni de la Armată : Şeful St.Maj al Armatei gen.maior Laskin, Şeful Biroului Operaţii col. Lukin şi Cdt.Bg.38 Inf.Moto col. Burmakov, însoţiţi de o echipă de la comandament, care ajungând la Statul major al lui von Paulus, au prezentat un ultimatum privind încetarea rezistenţei şi capitularea deplină a grupării germane înconjurate. Ultimatumul a fost acceptat în totalitate.
Trupelor din gruparea din sud comandate de generalmajor Roske le-a fost dat ordin să depună armele. Ordinul a fost executat imediat. Generalmajor Roske i s-a dat timp pentru a organiza predarea totală a efectivelor, armamentului şi tehnicii.
Pe durata convorbirilor, i s-a cerut generalfeldmarschall von Paulus să ordone trupelor din gruparea de la nord să înceteze rezistenţa. La această solicitare von Paulus a răspuns cu un refuz.
După ce au fost date indicaţiile privind modalitatea predării efectivelor şi armamentului, generalfeldmarschall von Paulus cu Şeful de Stat-major generalleutnant Schmidt şi aghiotantul personal au fost duşi la Statul Major al Armatei.
Generalfeldmarschall von Paulus s-a predat împreună cu întreg efectivul Statului său major. Tot atunci s-au mai predat şi au fost aduşi la Statul Major al Armatei : Cdt. Div.29 Inf.Moto generalmajor Leyser, Şeful artileriei Corpului 51 Armată generalmajor Vassol şi Cdt. Div.1 Cav.(rom.) gen. Brătescu.
Comandantul trupelor Armatei 64,
Source - NET :
Printre cei luaţi prizonieri s-a aflat generalul Brătescu, din cavaleria română. Când a fost întrebat unde sunt caii lor, a răspuns : « i-au mâncat soldaţii lui Paulus… »
După ce i s-a spus că gen. Brătescu a declarat că generalii germani i-au mâncat caii, generalfeldmarschall Paulus s-a amuzat şi s-a lamentat emoţionat : « Adevărat, este adevărat ! Şi eu am mâncat carne de cal … dar au mâncat şi ei ! »
|Posted by: Petre July 30, 2018 04:39 pm|