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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Eastern Front (1941-1944) > Romanian involvement in the Battle of Kursk|
|Posted by: Florin December 27, 2003 03:50 pm|
Did any units belonging to the Romanian Army (ground troops) or to the Romanian Royal Air Force took part in the Battle of Kursk (July 1943) ?
If not the Romanians, did any units of the other "Allierte" involved themselves alongside the Germans during the Kursk battle?
|Posted by: aerialls December 28, 2003 04:30 am|
|Hitler said: "Zitadelle will be only an german enterprise"|
|Posted by: Victor December 29, 2003 08:12 pm|
PS: As a matter of fact Hungarian Bf-109Gs from the Puma took part in the fighting.
|Posted by: Florin December 30, 2003 01:59 am|
Should I understand that Puma was the name of a Hungarian aerial squadron?
The only other "Puma" I know to be related to World War II was the nickname of a four wheeled light German vehicle.
|Posted by: Victor December 30, 2003 09:19 am|
|It was the name of a fighter group (5/I.). Denes can probably tell you more.|
|Posted by: Dan Po April 27, 2004 12:29 am|
| I never heared about any romanian unit involved in Kursk Battle.
Only some romanians wich was students in german military schools - as isolated cases - participated at that battle.
For datails see "Pumnul de fier" by Dan Giju, ed. Phobos, Bucuresti 2003.
This book - a good one - is a kind of biografy of a romanian tank officer who was graduate of Tank officer s School from Neiruppin in 1944.
|Posted by: Marius July 24, 2004 10:23 am|
|NO, romanians did not fight at Kursk. The romanian tanks where the ones used in WW1. only some (a few) bought from the germans, where PzKw II. The romanians simply did not have the resources to fight the biggest tank battle in history.|
|Posted by: dragos July 24, 2004 10:40 am|
As far as I know, no Panzer II was ever bought by Romania. If you want to learn more about the Romanian armour, visit the armour page of the site:
|Posted by: Marius July 24, 2004 02:59 pm|
| "Pe 17 octombrie 1942, datorita situatiei materiale proaste a trupelor romane si imbunatatirea tehnicii de lupta blindate a Uniunii Sovietice, Germania a cedat armatei romane 22 de tancuri medii. Acestea cuprindeau 11 Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf N, varianta finala a seriei de tancuri Panzerkampfwagen III, produsa de Daimler-Benz in perioada 1942-43. Principalul tanc al armatei germane in primii ani de razboi, Panzerkampfwagen III a cunoscut o continua evolutie, dictata de prezenta unor oponenti mai puternici pe campul de lupta. "
I made a mistake..... :cry: Thy where Pzkw III. (11 of them)
|Posted by: Dan Po November 07, 2004 11:45 pm|
As I said, the romanians were there as individuals (military students during the front-practical stage), as a members in german units.
|Posted by: mabadesc November 10, 2004 03:16 am|
Although Romania did not participate at Kursk (nor were they properly equipped to do so), the Romanian Army received several shipments of Pz III's and Pz. IV's(labeled T-4).
It is misleading to limit the army's armored equipment to WWI tanks and a few (11) Pz III's, as you mentioned. Its armored capability was significantly larger and more powerful, though still inadequate by Germany's standards.
|Posted by: Chandernagore November 28, 2004 08:30 pm|
|What Germany needed to win Kursk was to attack somewhere else|
|Posted by: MAB38 November 30, 2004 05:17 pm|
Romanian tanks were not just antiques that dated back to WW1 (the Renault FT17), there was also the czechoslovak R1 and R2 and the french R35 that were modern for the early stages of WW2. Then there were the german tanks.
|Posted by: dragos November 30, 2004 08:12 pm|
|The http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?category=armor&language=en section of the site describes all the tanks used by Romanian Army during WW2|
|Posted by: Florin January 03, 2005 05:41 am|
In the last years this story, with the titanic / apocalyptic tank versus tank battle, came under some attack, even from Russia. According to these critics, the Soviet historians and propagandists invented the scenario of the huge tank versus tank battle to cover the "shame" of the huge losses in Soviet tanks. Actually not the losses themselves were the "shame", but the ratio between how many Russian tanks were lost versus how many German tanks were lost.
These points of view claim that during the battle of Kursk many tanks destroyed by the Russian infantry or artillery were counted by the Soviet historians as destroyed by the Russian tanks.
|Posted by: Florin January 03, 2005 06:32 am|
The following comment...
What then comes as a surprise is the extent to which both sides used
obsolescent equipment and that the Germans suffered from
insufficient logistical support. Glantz and House maintain that the
Luftwaffe's Sixth Air Fleet, tasked with supporting the attack in
the north, was equipped with three groups of aging JU-87 Stuka
dive-bombers among its 730 combat aircraft and "generally received
only two-thirds of its required levels of aviation fuel...." (p.54).
The Fourth Air Fleet, supporting the attack in the south, had 1,100
aircraft, including Hungarian assets, and "seven groups of...Stukas had to provide the bulk of close air support in an increasingly
hostile air defense environment" .
...is from a review of the book "The Battle of Kursk", by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House.
The review can be accessed on
|Posted by: Imperialist January 08, 2011 11:21 am|
|History Channel aired a documentary on Kursk today and in it they say that a Russian patrol captured a young Romanian recruit the night before the German offensive and he told them the hour the Germans planned to attack early in the morning.|
|Posted by: 21 inf January 08, 2011 11:35 am|
Yeah, sure he knew all!
|Posted by: MMM January 08, 2011 02:19 pm|
|And History Channel are the guards of the "absolute truth", of the "ultimate knowledge", aren't they?|
|Posted by: Alexei2102 January 08, 2011 07:25 pm|
Perhaps it was a young German soldier (a Romanian Volksdeutche) who was captured, and he claimed to be a Romanian national in order to receive a better treatment as a POW...????
What do you think about this idea ?
|Posted by: 21 inf January 08, 2011 08:25 pm|
|Or maybe he was a romanian 100%, making his 100 days frontline period as young junior oficer in german military schools.|
|Posted by: MMM January 09, 2011 08:33 am|
But the Soviet interrogators wouldn't have made the difference between the Romanian and German uniforms?
|Posted by: Alexei2102 January 09, 2011 11:51 am|
Of course they would, that is a rhetorical question... But I heard stories about POW (German ones) that claimed to be foreign nationals (French, Dutch, etc), drafted by force into the Wehrmacht.... That would be one such case IMO.
|Posted by: MMM January 09, 2011 12:06 pm|
|That may be, as well; I still have my money on a simple error of the documentary's authors... (Usually the simplest explanation is also the real one!)|
|Posted by: Imperialist December 07, 2011 07:35 pm|
| Just as a type this the History Channel is broadcasting a Russian-made documentary about the Eastern Front.
This evening's subject: Battle of Kursk.
This time however the Russians don't capture a Romanian recruit, but a German engineer.
More interesting claims: the Soviets learn the details of the German plan from a source that remains unknown to this day, apparently a member of the OKW.
They also get hold of a German map (how, from whom?) showing the Soviet positions as seen from German aerial recon. Many Soviet units are then ordered to change their positions.
According to Russian source on the web, Stalin knew about the German plan as early as March 27:
The more you read the more you find these amazing feats that the Allies made on both "fronts" (German and Japanese). The Germans and Japanese seem to be non-existant intelligence-wise. They can't even protect their data, let alone score intelligence coups against the Allies.
|Posted by: PaulC April 19, 2012 05:06 pm|
The German and the Japanese were non-existant intelligence wise, yes. The allies read more or less all their codes.
The Enigma was broken by the Poles first and then repeatedly by Bletchley Park. For most of the war, the English were reading German traffic with a few days delay. Luftwaffe and army was the easiest to break since the operators were negligent ( should have been shot for this ) by using the same coding formats for multiple messages. No matter how many upgrades Enigma and derivates received, lack of discipline meant they were broken fairly easily.
The Japanese were in a similar situation and the easiest way to crack their codes was due to the hilarious habit they had to use certain formal salutes every time ( a cultural issue ). Whenever center A wrote to center B, let's say Yamamoto's HQ, they used a certain salute. Even when the code was changed, it was quickly deciphered since the Americans rightfully assumed the beginning is the formal salute.
The Italians, call me amazed, were the only ones who had more or less secure communications. Cape Matapan happened because of an intelligence failure and the Italians made sure they won't repeat the mistake again. For the rest of the war, the allies couldn't read Italian traffic. But it didn't really matter since they read German one and the info leaked.
As for the Russian mole in OKW; that's the alleged Lucy ring from Switzerland. GRU operatives there were contacted by an alleged german who wished to pass information from the highest command of the OKW. In reality, it was the british that not wanting to let the russians know about Ultra, passed on German info to the soviets under the cover of the Lucy ring.
|Posted by: Petre January 23, 2016 06:16 pm|
| I remember a TV show (romanian). A discussion with general Constantin Olteanu.
An old man calls. He wants to say Hallo to general. Gen. Olteanu recognizes that person and afther that he states the old man was his tank teacher at Mil. Academy, a war veteran who fought at Prokhorovka.
I hope I remember it well.
|Posted by: Storm January 26, 2016 12:04 pm|
You should note that multiple defensive strips and lines were layered over a depth of hundred of km, 300km or more. It is hard to believe that you can surprise such a "fortress".
|Posted by: Alanmccoubrey January 29, 2016 04:28 pm|
A German PUMA would have been the SdKfz 234/2 which had 8 wheels.