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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Royal Navy > axis ships and convoys|
|Posted by: daveh June 18, 2003 11:35 pm|
| Did the convoys used by the Axis in the Black sea ever contain vessels from nations other than Germany and Romania eg Italy , Bulgaria, Hungary.
Were Romanian naval vessels ever used to escort none German or Romanian ships?
Were Romanian vessels ever escorted by none Romanian naval vessels?
|Posted by: Victor June 19, 2003 08:47 am|
| Yes, they did. Hungary had 7 cargo ships (a total of 3,800 tons) and Bulgaria had 8 ships (a total of 11,000 tons). They were subordinated to the German Command and used to supply the troops on the front. Since Hungary had no warships in the Black Sea and Bulgaria refused to engage its war fleet outside its territorial waters, the escort duties were carried out by the Romanian Royal Navy and by the Kriegsmarine.
Bulgaria lost two ships: the Shipka 2,304 tons on 15 Aug 41 to a mine and the Varna 2,141 tons pn 20 Aug 43 to a submarine. Hungary lost only the Ungvar 961 tons on 9 Nov 41 to a mine.
The Italian tankers only sailed between Istanbul and Constanta, but they were escorted every time by Romanian ships.
The only non-German naval unit that escorted Romanian ships (well in fact they took part in the escort missions, they were not in charge) was a Croat KFK Flotila.
|Posted by: Anonymous June 20, 2003 06:44 am|
| Hello Daveh and Victor!
15.09.1941 - bulgarian "Shipka" (2304 t) sank on mine, laid by soviet sub "L-4".
20.08.1943 - bulgarian "Varna" (2141 t) sank by soviet sub "D-4" near Tarkhankut Cape.
Except bulgarian and hungarian vessels some italian ships were lost:
29.09.1941 - italian tanker "Superga" (6154 t) sank by soviet sub "SC-211" near Emine Cape. The ship sank in shallow water, next day the wreck was attacked by "SC-211" again. Two torpedoes destroyed tanker finally.
5.11.1941 - italian tanker "Torchello" (3336 t) sank by soviet sub "SC-214" near Kuruburun Cape.
If somebody interested I have a list of soviet subs successes at Black Sea, also a list of soviet subs losses.
|Posted by: Victor June 20, 2003 11:47 am|
| Ships lost by the Axis in the Black Sea to Soviet action: June 1941 - May 1944
Peles 5,708 15 Aug 41 submarine Romania
Shipka 2,304 15 Aug 41 mine Bulgaria
Superga 6,154 29 Sep 41 submarine Italy
Regele Carol I 2,369 10 Oct 41 mine Romania
Remorcher dragor B 200 24 Oct 41 mine Romania
Remorcher dragor D 200 25 Oct 41 mine Romania
Theresia Wallner ? 25 Oct 41 mine Germany
Toricello 3,336 5 Nov 41 submarine Italy
Ungvar 961 9 Nov 41 mine Hungary
Vijelia 47 9 Nov 41 mine (explosion of Ungvar) Romania
Viforul 47 9 Nov 41 mine (explosion of Ungvar) Romania
Cavarna 3,495 2 Dec 41 mine Romania
Cordelia 1,354 2 Dec 41 mine Germany
Sulina 3,495 29 May 42 submarine Romania
Sperrbrecher 191 1 July 42 mine Germany
Ankara ? 23 Aug 42 submarine ?
Salzburg 1,742 1 Oct 42 submarine Germany
Oltul ? 6 Oct 42 submarine Romania
Carpati 4,336 10 Oct 42 submarine Romania
Le Proges 511 21 Oct 42 submarine Germany
Suceava 6,846 20 Apr 43 submarine Romania
Arkadia 1,756 29 Apr 43 mine Germany
Birgit ? 12 June 43 aircraft Germany
Boy Federsen 6,689 11 Aug 43 aircraft Germany
Varna 2,141 20 Aug 43 subamarine Bulgaria
Thiesbe 1,782 30 Aug 43 submarine Germany
Thyra 5 ? 25 Oct 43 submarine Germany
Theodorich 3,409 12 Nov 43 submarine Germany
MFP 592 15 Nov 43 submarine Germany
Santa Fe 4,627 23 Nov 43 submarine Germany
Volga-Don 965 25 Nov 43 submarine Germany
KT ? 800 26 Nov 43 aircraft Germany
MFP F580 ? 10 Dec 43 submarine Germany
MFP 566 ? 12 Dec 43 mine Germany
Ossag 2,790 22 Apr 44 aircraft and submarine Germany
Leo (barge) ? 25 Apr 44 aircraft Germany
Junak 444 2 May 44 aircraft Germany
KFK 2324 ? 3 May 44 aircraft Germany
MFP 132 800 6 May 44 Germany
Prodromos 810 9 May 44 artillery Germany
Gunter 300 9 May 44 artillery Germany
Basarabia 500 9 May 44 Germany
Totila 2,773 10 May 44 aircraft Germany
Theja 3,600 10 May 44 aircraft Germany
Romania 3,152 11 May 44 aircraft Romania
Danubius 1,489 11 May 44 aircraft Romania
Helga 2,200 11 May 44 aircraft Germany
Durostor 1,309 12 May 44 submarine and aircraft Romania
Geisereich 712 12 May 44 aircraft Germany
UJ 315 125 18 June 44 mine Germany
|Posted by: Victor June 20, 2003 12:23 pm|
| Toricello missed the rendezvous with the Romanian destroyers and was an easy prey for SC-214. Ironically, the same sub sank 3 days later when it was trying to get close to the Czar Ferdinand and Carpati cargo ships and it hit a mine from the barrage launched by the NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941.
Kirill please do post the list of Soviet sub losses and kills. I have info on several attacks and which sub was responsible for the sinking, but the list is not complete.
|Posted by: Kirill June 20, 2003 10:19 pm|
| Hello again Victor!
[quote="victor"]Toricello missed the rendezvous with the Romanian destroyers and was an easy prey for SC-214. Ironically, the same sub sank 3 days later when it was trying to get close to the Czar Ferdinand and Carpati cargo ships and it hit a mine from the barrage launched by the NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941.
Really "SC-214" was sunk only 19.06.1942 by italian torpedo cutter "MAS-571" near Ajtodor Cape. Two mans from crew survived the attack and were picked up by italians.
Soviet subs losses in Black Sea 1941 - 1944:
?.1941 - "SC-206" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 22.06.1941. Probably was sunk by romanian ships 9.07.1941 near Mangalia.
?.1941 - "M-58" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 16.10.1941. Probably sank on mine near Konstanza.
?.1941 - "M-59" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 26.10.1941. Probably sank on mine near Sulina.
?.1941 - "M-34" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 28.10.1941. Reason of loss unknown.
11-13.11.1941 - "S-34" sank on mine near Shabler Cape.
25.11.1941 - ? - "SC-204" missed in Black Sea. Reason of loss unknown (may be romanian mine or bulgarian aircraft?). The wreck of "SC-204" was founded in 1984.
?.1941 - "SC-211" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 14.11.1941. Probably sank on mine near Varna.
?.1941 - "SC-212" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 11.12.1941. Sank on romanian mine near Fidonisi Island. The wreck was founded in 1976.
?.1942 - "SC-210" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 12.03.1942. Probably sank on romanian mine near Shabler Cape.
19.06.1942 - "SC-214" sank by italian torpedo cutter "MAS-571" near Ajtodor Cape.
26.06.1942 - "A-1" and "D-6" destroyed by crews at Sevastopol (they were in repair from the beginning of war).
?.06.1942 - "S-32" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 26.06.1942. Probably sank by german aircraft 26.06.1942 on route Novorossijsk - Sevastopol.
22-25.08.1942 - "M-33" sank on two mines of S-33 mine barrage near Odessa. Raised in 1951.
?.1942 - "SC-208" lost in Blck Sea. Missed from 23.08.1942. Probably sank on romanian mine between Konstanza and Sulina.
23-26.09.1942 - "M-60" sank on mine of mine barrage S-33 near Odessa. Raised in 1951.
1.10.1942 - "M-118" sank by german aircraft and romanian gunboats after the sinking of german steamship "Salzburg".
?.1942 - "SC-213" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 28.09.1942. Probably sank on romanian mines or sank by german submarine hunter UJ-80 14.10.1942.
?.1942 - L-24 lost in Black Sea. Missed from 12.12.1942. Probably sank on mine of mine barrage "S-15" near Kaliakria Cape.
?.1942 - "M-31" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 14.12.1942. probably sank 17.12.1942 by german subhunter "UJ-80" at Zhebriana Bay.
6.08.1943 - "SC-203" was sunk by italian sub "CB-4" near Sevastopol.
?.10.1943 - "A-3" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 22.10.1943. Probably was sunk 28.10.1943 by romanian ships near Tarkhankut Cape.
?.12.1943 - "D-4" lost in Black Sea. Probably sank 4.12.1943 by german UJ-102 and UJ-103 near Uret Cape. "D-4" attacked german MFP F-566 (torpedoes missed) and then was sunk by german U-jagers.
4.01.1944 - "M-36" lost in accident during speed trials near Kobuleti.
17.01.1944 - "L-23" sank by UJ-106 near Tarkhankut Cape after sub unsuccessfully attacked this ship.
?.1944 - "SC-216" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 6.02.1944. Probably sank on german mine barrage S-77 or sank by german subhunters UJ-103 and UJ-106 near Tarkhankut Cape 17.02.1944.
?.1944 - "L-6" lost in Black Sea. Missed from 11.04.1943. Probably was sunk 16.04.1943 by UJ-115 and german aircraft or 21.04.1943 by UJ-104 or 19.04.1943 by UJ-103.
Total: 27 subs were lost from 62 (43,55 %)
List of soviet subs successes I'll post later when I verify some points.
|Posted by: Victor June 21, 2003 05:38 am|
|Then I guess it was the S-32 then, which sank in the minefield? Anyway, I will start comparing the list with Romanian claims|
|Posted by: Victor June 21, 2003 11:24 am|
| Here is what I was able to find so far:
SC-211 hit a mine near Varna and sank around 30.11.1941 (from the barrage launched by NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941 during Operation Varna.
M-34 was sunk on 01.12.1941 by NMS Regele Ferdinand and NMS Marasesti at the border of Bilgarian-Romanian territorial waters (the two ships claimed a Maliutka class sub, and this one could be it)
M-59 hit a mine in the vicinity of Sulina around 30.11-01.12.1941
SC-210 was most likely sunk by Remorcherul dragor A and NMS Viscolul on 05.04.1942 at 0930.
SC-208 was probably sunk by NMS Regele Ferdinand on 16.09.1942, when the Romanian destroyer claimed a Sciutka class sub 20 miles South of Cape Sarich at 0748-0753
I found a mention about L-5 , which was supposedly lost around 21-26.09.1942, probably because ofa mine.
M-118 was sunk by NMS Ghiculescu and NMS Stihi on 1.10.1942;the German BV-180seaplane only spotted the sub, it did not sink it. The Salzburg was carrying 2000 Soviet POWs. Only 132 survived.
According to another source the sub sunk by the Italian CB-4 was SC-207 and the episode happened on 28.08.1943
A-3 was sunk by Uj-117 and 3 KFKs on 28.10.1943
|Posted by: Florin June 22, 2003 07:48 am|
My grandfather (member of a Romanian mountain unit), while evacuated from Crimea, was on a ship who was sunk in April 1944. He survived and he was rescued, after floating one night on the surface of the Black Sea.
I cannot tell you the name of the ship and the exact day. My grandfather died 23 years ago. I was child when I heard the story.
|Posted by: Kirill June 22, 2003 01:02 pm|
| Victor, you wrote: "Then I guess it was the S-32 then, which sank in the minefield?"
S-32 was lost in June 1942.
I think you mean S-34, not S-32.
S-34 was lost 11-13.11.1941 on mine. Two submariners survived and could got out from the sunken sub and they went on the bulgarian shore 14.11.1941 near Sozopol city. But then they both died. Their corps were founded by bulgarian police (some photos and article about S-34 (In Russian language) you can find at http://www.town.ural.ru/ship/ship/s34.php3).
You also wrote: "SC-211 hit a mine near Varna and sank around 30.11.1941 (from the barrage launched by NMS Regele Carol I in October 1941 during Operation Varna."
What's your source? Russian sources says following about this submarine:
14.11.1941 - went to the position near Varna. Missed. In September 2000 near St. Atanas Cape (during the war the name of this cape was Akburnu Cape) the wreck of "SC"-class sub was founded. Except "SC-211" no other subs were lost in this area. The wreck was dived and divers saw following: first compartment was destroyed completely, second compartment was partly damaged. It's not clear what reason could bring so big damages. In this area was laid romanian mine barrage S-18, but this barrage consisted from DMA mines with weight of explosives 30 kgs. This mines couldn't damaged the sub so heavily. Exact date of loss "SC-211" unknown.
"L-5 , which was supposedly lost around 21-26.09.1942, probably because of a mine".
Really L-5 survived the war.
"According to another source the sub sunk by the Italian CB-4 was SC-207 and the episode happened on 28.08.1943"
"SC-207" survived the war.
During the war in Black Sea were lost only 27 subs. All other survived.
|Posted by: Victor June 23, 2003 07:56 am|
Yes, it was a typing error
During Operation Varna (8-21 October 1941) the Romanian minelayers NMS Murgescu, NMS Dacia and NMS Regele Carol I launched 1,300 anti-submarine contact mines, of German origin. The source mentions a quantity of explosives over 100 kg. There were 7 barrages laid: Burgas-Sozopol, Cape Emine, South Varna, North Varna, SE Cape Caliacra, Cape Sabla and South Mangalia.
NMS Carol I was lost on 10 October along with 21 sailors, as it hit a mine launched probably by L-4.
On 30 November 1941, a convoy made up of Czar Ferdinand and Carpati left from varna. As the convoy was forming, a Sciutka class tried to close in, but it hit a mine. I suppose it was the Sc-211. My source gives Sc-214, but it is probably a printing error. IMO, Sc-211 fits very well in this story.
Ok. I was just double-checking. Generally the source where I found this is well informed on the ChF and it has several quotes from books written by Soviet submariners.
|Posted by: Victor June 23, 2003 07:57 am|
It was most likely the German barge Leo, which carried 800 Romanian soldiers and 200 Soviet POWs. It sank on 25 April 1944, following a VVS attack.
|Posted by: daveh June 23, 2003 06:08 pm|
| Very interesting discussion.
Is any of the information being used based on Jurgen Rohwer's work on allied submarine attacks?. If not would it be useful to post details from there?.
Are any of the sources being quoted available in English?
|Posted by: Victor June 23, 2003 07:05 pm|
Not my sources. Only Romanian ones.
|Posted by: Kirill June 29, 2003 03:35 pm|
| One addition to soviet subs losses:
22.09.1943 - "M-51" sank (reason - accident during speed trials) near Ochamchire.
8 submariners died. 25.09.1943 raised, later repaired.
|Posted by: Sergey July 10, 2003 07:35 am|
| Hello daveh,
Unfortunately, Rohwer’s work contains in a part of subs of the Black Sea fleet many mistakes. Apparently, he did not manage to study a Journal of Battle Operations Konstanza, which was captured and is now in the Soviet archives.
By the way, Theo, the damage of a hunter Uj 101 by the not exploited torpedo at 10.37 23.11.43 in a point 45.32N/ 32.32E in these documents is fixed. The same day hunter was damaged by aircrafts. The repair was effected in Sevastopol till 13.12.43.
Best at present book about operations of the Soviet submarines by the Black sea is M. Morozov "Submarines of VMF USSR in Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. The annals of battle campaigns. Part 2. Black Sea fleet", grounded extremely on archival datas and double-ended sources in a part of results of attacks of submarines and their losses.
Unfortunately, only in Russian. It is possible to buy: firm " Strategy of KM ", 125015, Moscow, Russia, Novodmitrovskaja st., office 1601, telephone +7 (095) 787 3610. http://www.kvest.com/publish.asp?pub_id=
|Posted by: Sergey July 10, 2003 12:11 pm|
| Hello Victor,
Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:47 you wrote: “Yes, they did. Hungary had 7 cargo ships (a total of 3,800 tons) and Bulgaria had 8 ships (a total of 11,000 tons). They were subordinated to the German Command and used to supply the troops on the front. Since Hungary had no warships in the Black Sea and Bulgaria refused to engage its war fleet outside its territorial waters, the escort duties were carried out by the Romanian Royal Navy and by the Kriegsmarine.”
I have included (without Warships, such as Regele Carol I and Romania) 32 German (21 lost), 16 Romanian (13 lost), 7 Italian (3 lost), 7 Hungarian (1 lost) and 4 Bulgarian (3 lost) vessels.
Probably, some vessels not in the list. It is possible it to specify?
Type and name of a vessel / tonnage, BRT/ year of construction / nation/ fate
T Firuz 7.327 1928 germ. = 06.08.43 T SS SC-216, = 11.05.44 T SS L-4
D Boy Feddersen 6.689 germ. + 10.08.43 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Santa Fe 4.627 1921 germ. + 23.11.43 sov. or germ. M
D Theoderich 3.814 1912 germ. + 22.11.43 T SS M-111
D Peter 3.754 germ. + 04.03.44 brit. AIRCRAFT
T Ossag 2.793 1922 germ. = 14.11.42 T SS L-23, + 22.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Totila 2.773 1942 germ. + 10.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Teja 2.773 1942 germ. + 10.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Birgit 1.971 germ. + 12.06.43 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Gertrud 1.960 1930 germ.
D Johanna 1.899 1925 germ.
D Thisbe 1.782 1925 germ. + 30.08.43 T SS SC-215
D Arkadia 1.756 1927 germ. + 28.04.43 germ. M
D Salzburg 1.742 1921 germ. + 01.10.42 T SS M-118
D Helga 1.620 germ. # 11.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Scharlotta 1.591 germ. + 1944 germ. M
D Cordelia 1.357 germ. + 02.12.41 M
D Lola 1.193 1920 germ. = 29.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Wolga-Don 956 germ. + 25.11.43 T SS L-6
T Prodromos 877 1907 germ. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Geiserich 712 germ. + 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
T Le Progress 511 1892 germ. + 21.10.42 T SS M-35
D Char'kov germ.
T Dresden germ.
T MT I germ.
lighter Tyna V 1278 t germ. + 25.10.43 T SS M-112
lighter CNR 1293 1270 t germ. + 02.11.43 T SS M-35
lighter Elbe 5 500 germ. + 07.05.44 T MTB TKA-304
lighter Leo 409 germ. + 25.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Adelheid 444 germ.
tug Junak 444 germ. + 03.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Heinburg 378 1912 germ. # 28.08.43 T SS M-111
D Peles 5708 rom. + 15.08.41 T SS SC-211
D Alba Iulia 5708 rom. # 18.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Suceava 5695 rom. + 20.04.43 T SS S-33
D Ardeal 5695 rom. # 11.06.42 T SS A-5
D Carpati 4336 rom. + 10.10.42 T SS SC-216
D Sulina 3495 rom. + 29.05.42 T SS A-3
D Cavarna 3493 rom. + 02.12.41 M
D Romania 3157 rom. + 11.05.44 T MTB TKA-353
T Oituz 2628 rom. + 01.09.44 germ. SS U-23
D Danubius 1489 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Durostor 1309 rom. + 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter War 1000 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Dunarea I 1505 t rom. + 18.07.43 T SS M-111
lighter CNR 1468 1332 t rom. # 29.07.43 M SS L-4, + 11.04.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Vistulia 500 rom. + 08.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
lighter Basarabia 500 rom. + 09.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
T Superga 6154 ital. + 30.09.41 T SS SC-211
T Tampiko 4959 1908 ital.
T Maya 3867 ital.
T Celeno 3741 1899 ital.
T Torcello 3336 1892 ital. + 03.11.41 T SS SC-214
T Arka 2238 ital. + 26.10.42 T brit. SS
T Albaro 2104 1911 ital.
D Kolozsvar 1200 hung. + 1943 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Ungvar 1031 hung. + 09.11.41 M
D Kassa 1022 hung.
D Tisza 961 hung. = 12.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Seged 594 hung.
D Magyar Vitej hung.
D Budapest 493 hung. # 06.05.44 AIRCRAFT CHF
D Shipka 4159 bulg. + 15.09.41 M SS L-4
D Shipka 2304 bulg. + 15.09.41 T SS L-4
D Tsar Ferdinand 2141 bulg.
D Evdokia 706 bulg. + 1943 AIRCRAFT CHF
|Posted by: Victor July 10, 2003 05:30 pm|
| I have some comments regarding the list of Romanian ships:
Suceava had 6846 tons.
Cavarna had 3495 tons.
Romania had 3152 tons. It was not sunk by a TB, but by VVS-ChF aircraft. At 0752,the ship was hit by bombs off the coast at Kerson and the ammunition exploded setting the ship on fire. The crew and the passengers were saved.
Danubius was sunk also on 11.05.44. 8 minutes after Romania exploded, at 0800, several bombs hit Danubius, which was just unloading ammunition for the troops holding the beachhead. It went up in seconds. Very few survivors.
The barges Vár (or Vát) and Basarabia were German (many Romanian ships had been leased to the The Germans; they had a German crew and flag). I also found them mentioned with 800 tons, not 500.
I also found absolutely no mention of Vistulia, Dunarea-1 and CNT 1468.
PS: For Danubius I can give you data about the ship, owner, military capacity etc. , if you want.
|Posted by: Dénes July 10, 2003 06:21 pm|
| Corrections of a couple of spelling errors (accent marks are ignored):
|Posted by: Sergey July 11, 2003 07:17 am|
| Many thanks for corrections!
Victor, you wrote: “Suceava had 6846 tons.”
What sources you use?
Such tonnage specifies and dr. J. Rohwer, however in the registers vessels Peles, Ardeal, Suceava and Alba Julia are as of the same type cargo-passenger steam vessels.
By the way, have you possibility to look in the book Kolsinski N., Stanescu R. Marina Romana in al II-lea razboi mondial, 1996-1998 ?
Probably, there can find info on these vessels.
You wrote: “Cavarna had 3495 tons.”
I accept your version, as available for me - 3493 BRT - is very close to it.
You wrote: “Romania had 3152 tons. It was not sunk by a TB, but by VVS-ChF aircraft. At 0752,the ship was hit by bombs off the coast at Kerson and the ammunition exploded setting the ship on fire. The crew and the passengers were saved.”
This episode is in detail enough described in the book M. Morozov “Sink all of them?!.. VVS ChF in operation on release of Crimea.” It can be found to the address: http://www.airforce.ru/history/ww2/blacksea/part_1.htm
The final hit of the heavily damaged and abandoned ship was made by motortorpedoboats:
“At 22:45 boats №353 and №301 (SM-3 has returned because of unserviceability of the motor, and №341 temporarily has lagged behind) have detected at cape Feolent enemy transport by the tonnage about 4000 BRT, well seen in a light of SABs, thrown off our aircrafts. After fulfilment of a series of recovery maneuvers was clarified, that the vessel has no course. At 23:46 №301 and №353 attacked the enemy, and torpedo hit last has achieved. The crews of boats have assumed, that transport drove fuel, as on it a strong fire again has begun. Who could be their victim? From the large share of reliance it is possible to assume, that to it there was a wreck of minelayer Romania, which sunk, on German data, on dawn 12 after a strong fire.”
You wrote: “Danubius was sunk also on 11.05.44. 8 minutes after Romania exploded, at 0800, several bombs hit Danubius, which was just unloading ammunition for the troops holding the beachhead. It went up in seconds. Very few survivors.”
Fragments from the same source:
“All these fluctuatings were reflected in the instructions to the commanders of escorts of 2 turn, which have abandoned Constance within evenings of May 9. By the plan they should evacuate half of remaining forces of the seventeenth army - 25.000 men - in night on May 11. The convoys called Reicher (up to Chersonese have reached tug Teben and three MFP), Profet (transports Helga, Tisza, Danubius, six MFP, gunboat Stihi, patrolship Grafenau, minesweeper and subhunter), Pionier (small tank vessel Dresden and three subhunters), Fliege (tug Lobau, three MFP and three subhunters) and Owidiu (minelayer Romania, transport KT 25, destroyer R. Ferdinand and subhunter). They were recommended "to go to cape Chersonese" in account that the local authorities, or commanders in place will understand, that by him to do. That happened on a peninsula in Constance it was simply heavy to present!…
With dawn of May 11 the aero-marine battle has begun to boil with new force...
A series of new raids has followed after one hour. This time neat hit FAB-100, dropped by one of six Il has called eighth GShAP at 08:53, detonation of an ammunition on a steam vessel Danubius (1489 BRT). The vessel quickly has disappeared underwater …
A little bit later attention of the operators in a Air Force Staff was attracted with an escort Owidiu. At 08:44 it from large height was unsuccessfully bombed by five Il-4 fifth G.MTAP. At 10:50 vessels were catched by 12 Il of forty seventh ShAP, managed to put Romania serious damages. Minelayer has lit up and has lost course. For the commander of an escort were on a bridge of a destroyer R. Ferdinand, was apparent, that at absence of "an air parasol" as Messers or Vokkers, the attempt of rendering assistance to a minelayer quite can reduce in loss of all remaining vessels and ships of a convoy. The followed soon events completely have acknowledged it, that is why, having left for a stern shining Romania, a destroyer, transport KT 25 and hunter Uj 110 continued to leave in western direction.”
You wrote: “The barges Vár (or Vát) and Basarabia were German (many Romanian ships had been leased to the The Germans; they had a German crew and flag). I also found them mentioned with 800 tons, not 500.”
You know other Romanian or German barges used for transportations by the Black sea ?
You wrote: “I also found absolutely no mention of Vistulia, Dunarea-1 and CNT 1468.”
Some info about CNR 1468 you can be found here: (thank, Theo)
You wrote: PS: For Danubius I can give you data about the ship, owner, military capacity etc. , if you want.
It would be very desirable.
I make mistake, specifying the Bulgarian vessels. The first line should be read:
D Rodina 4159 BRT bolg. + germ. M
And, certainly, it’s necessary to add a vessel known by all:
D Varna 2141 bolg. + T SS D-4
It would be interesting to find out other three Bulgarian vessels.
|Posted by: Victor July 11, 2003 11:12 am|
Well, you mentioned the source yourself
The data was taken from the report on the evacuation operation made by the undersecretary of the Navy, lt. gen. Nicolae Sova, on 15 May 1944.
Unfortunately no. I only found these because they are mentioned in loss lists in several places. In one place it has 500 tons, in another it has 800 t.
Sorry, I only found the overall number.
Owner: Mate Loevenschau, Triete, Italy, via Giorgio, 20
Built: 1899, Lubeck
Length: 75.99 m
Width: 10.7 m
Capacity: 1104/1575 tons; metric tons: 2371
Military transport capacity: men: 1000, horses: 150, carts: 100, cars: 30, artillery pieces: 50
|Posted by: Victor July 11, 2003 01:47 pm|
| Some comments regarding the German ships:
Boy Federsen was hit on 10, but sunk on 11.08.43
I found a mention of Teodorich being sunk on 12, not 22.11.43. It is also mentioned as a 3409 ton ship.
The same for Arkadia. 29 instead of 28.04.43
Wolga-Don 965 tons instead of 956.
The tanker Prodromos (810 tons) was supposedly sunk by artillery fire.
Erzhezog Karl was damaged by aircraft on 2.05.1944
|Posted by: Dénes July 13, 2003 01:58 am|
| On the following site, there are details on various Rumanian warships (I don't know how accurate they are, however):
|Posted by: Th. Dorgeist July 13, 2003 05:27 am|
| Hello Dénis,
is very interesting with many new names.
Naturally one would wish some ships and their whereabouts somewhat more exactly described itself.
Do you know such a thing perhaps also to Hungary and Bulgaria?
In the case of the Romanian warship listing the left cannot Romanian trading vessels be opened, is that everywhere like that?
In the German war diaries to the Danube and to the black sea many Romanian ships are specified which under 100 BRT large were probably.
give did it give in addition perhaps also somewhat?
|Posted by: Sergey July 14, 2003 08:34 am|
| Victor wrote: Well, you mentioned the source yourself
Unfortunately, I haven’t the book Kolsinski (or Koslinski - what is correct?) N. and Stanescu R. My correspondence friend which has this book approves that there is specified 5695 BRT.
He said also, that Groener gave earlier the tonnage 6786 BRT, remaining parameters specifying as at Ardeal, and in new 8-volume Groener’s work (v.5, p.54) Ardeal - 5695 BRT, and Suceava - 5710 BRT.
|Posted by: Florin September 19, 2003 07:42 am|
Thank you for the answer. I did not check for feedback since June, but following logical considerations and some memories I reached the same conclusion.
Honestly, I don't know in this moment what "VVS" means. My grandfather told me about a first wave of airplanes, at sea level, all of them shut-down. The second wave of bombers arrived at 9000 meters height. The convoy did not open fire on them. On the other side, because of the altitude all ships but Leo were missed by the bombers. (The high altitude bombers were supposed to be Americans. However, this is arguable, in the light of what I learnt in the last years.)
|Posted by: Victor September 19, 2003 10:38 am|
|VVS=Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily (eng. Military air force)|
|Posted by: Andreas von Mach September 21, 2003 10:28 am|
| There was a discussion on tonnage, so I have check from my sources
(I have numerous Lloyd's Registers of the WW II period)
2) Displacement metric tons (Lista Vaselor 1942)
3) GRT (LRS 1941/42)
4) NRT (Lista Vaselor 1942+LRS 1941/42)
Alba Iulia 7920t, 5700grt,3428nrt
Ardeal ? ,5695grt,3425nrt
Balcic 5700t, 3600grt,?
Basarabia 3351t, 6672grt
Bucegi ?, 6672grt,2952nrt
Carpati 7200t ,4336grt,2799nrt
Dacia 1770t, 3418grt,1364nrt
Oituz 3000t, 2686grt,2102nrt
Regele Carol I ?,2369,839nrt
Romania 1770t ,3152 ,1328nrt
Suceava 7920t ,6876grt,3426nrt
Sulina ?, 3495grt,2022nrt
Transilvania 3351t, 6672grt,3918nrt
Danubius 600t, 1498grt,923nrt
Dor de Mare ? - not in LRS
|Posted by: Victor September 21, 2003 03:07 pm|
| The work Marina Romana in primul razboi mondial by Raymond Stanescu and Cristian Craciunoiu, Modelism, 2000 gives the following data on Bucegi (built 1913) 4330 tons
Dor de mare was transformed into a submarine hunter, IIRC.
|Posted by: Sergey November 10, 2003 10:44 am|
| Hello Theo,
I have found, that “the damage” of Uj 101 has taken place while translating KTB Konstanza
In the original which is in New York this attack of M-35 is indicated as unsuccessful.
I apologize for this error.
|Posted by: Andreas von Mach December 15, 2004 11:05 pm|
| there are some still existing wracks,
not only of axis ships:
|Posted by: Pica March 15, 2010 01:02 pm|
Pictures made by J.P. Giroudon in the Black Sea romanian coast on the wreck of the german cargoship ARKADIA.