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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Royal Navy > A number of questions about naval actions.|
|Posted by: lupodimare89 March 10, 2013 10:45 am|
| Hello! I'm working to understand and find more details about naval warfare in Black Sea during the war. I've found a number of interesting things, but many others needs to be known well, and there are details that i think should have been written but not widely reported.
I make a list of all the things i've found that lack details...
(It could be really helpful if contributions are made not just quoting military history books, but sticking to copies or reports of war dyaries and official archivies, if they survived at the conflict and post-war)
Here there is the list:
26 June 1941
During the famous Battle of Constanta, reading the full reports of the battles according the different sources it's pretty clear that the Kharkov's crew spotted "torpedo tracks" launched against her, and it has been reported that both her and destroyer Soobrazitelnyi launched depth charges.
Exactly, when occurred the attack of the Romanian MTBs? They launched torpedoes?
I've read that they reported to have been "repulsed" by the Soviet ships, they received fire? There are full report/war diaries that mention to splinter damages or near miss?
20 August 1941
On submarine Delfinul history http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=249 is mentioned the attack of the M-33 submarine with torpedo. However i've read that the torpedo hit (without explode) or scratched the submarine hull, causing some damages that were repaired in a week (or a month according another source). There is a diary that could confirm this?
18 September 1941
I've read that leader destroyer Tashkent was subjected to a torpedo attack of Romanian MTBs. Who were the ships? Some said that they missed... some that they hit the ship but torpedo did not explode (dud attack). There is a full report of the mission? MTBs fired with artillery too? Tashkent fired with her own light artillery? There are reports of light damages/splinter damages on both sides? Further MTBs attacks were carried by Romanian units?
19 September 1941
On mines of the Soviet submarine L-4 is lost the Bulgarian minesweeper W-2. Origin of the ship? Tonnage?
11 October 1941
Has been claimed that the Bulgarian tug FR-12 (22 tonn.) was lost on mines of Soviet submarine L-4. Confirmed?
9 November 1941
Who laid the mines that caused the sinking of Ungvar and destruction of MTB Viforul and Vijelia? I've read the Soviet submarine L-4 as possible candidate, confirm? Other options?
1 December 1941
Merchants Cordelia and Cavarna, who laid the mines that sunk them?
6 October 1942
Conflicts about Oltul/Mina Daniel. Some reports of two different ships with different tonnage (96 tons for Oltul, 293 tons for Mina Daniel) somer reports they're different ships. Oltul was surely an ex-italian warship, converted as sub.chaser. Mina Daniel sometimes reported simply as "tug". Others (Morozov i think) claim they're the same ship. But why different tonns? It's possible that Mina Daniel had previously the "Oltul" name, and it's different from the smaller Oltul?
Who sunk her/them? Usually it's said submarine M-31 with torpedo. But i've read also of L-4 with mine.
7 October 1942
It has been reported that Soviet submarine ShCh-216 launched 2 torpedoes at a small Romanian dredger, that run aground (possibly to not be hit) and was lost. Identity of the ship? Tonnage?
1 December 1942
Cape Kaliaktra events.
Soviets destroyers Boikyi and Bezposhchadnyi reported to have destroyed a convoy of large ship.
It's clear that they have inflated what happened, but all the modern sources speaking about they fired at "rocks" seems a bit too much closer to Meister's opinion (an author i've found full of mistakes and errors and politically moved opinions into his text, with a number of errors and mistakes). It never happened again or before during the whole conflict and on other seas, that staff of a Soviet ship in action reported such a fake engagment (and here there were 2 ships, not one) (happened a number of bad identification: auxiliary ships for "auxiliary cruisers", minesweepers for "torpedo boats", and so on...) , and that nothing surfaced in years (overclaims happened, but not "invented" actions). And it's a bit incredible that they seriously mistook rocks (even if ther was bad weather) for ships because the reports of the action mention movements of the targets, including the attack of an "escort gunboat".
Now... of course they've not met a convoy of large merchants, but there were MINOR Romanian/Bulgarian/German/Italian ships on sea that time? Smaller crafts, little patrols or minesweepers.... or maybe trawlers, fishing ships or auxiliary ships or ferries.
That could have ben subjected to an unsuccessful attack...
For this research of course it's not enaugh reading an history naval book of Black Sea warfare, but should be need a research of German, Romanian and Bulgarian archieves about presence and movements and reports of all the naval traffic (something that Meister clearly have NOT done)
13 December 1942
Battle of Fedonisy
Soviet minesweepers Tszcz-406, Tszcz-407, Tszcz-408 and Tszcz-412 VS Smeul and merchants Tsar Ferdinand and Oituz. There is a FULL report of the battle? Possibly a war-diary of the Smeul?
Soviets had actually claimed hits on the head-merchant (who was?) and the Smeul. I've read that it's believed that no hits were scored during the engagement even if i've read that Smeul reported some shells fall close... there were splinter damages reported after the battle in official diaries? Light or splinter damages were reported on one of the merchants? There are diaries of the two merchants or reports of captains of the two ships that mention how close the shells fell?
19 December 1942
German list the smoll guardboat Delphin-4 sunk that day, i've read in Fedosiya. That day there was a bombing of Soviet destroyer Nezamozhnik and torpedo boat Shval. The two events can be related? (I've read the Delphin-4 as mentioned to be sunk during a "bombing" or "air raid", there was a air raid before or after the naval bombing? )
EDIT: I've just found that German defenses actually opened fire with AAA at first, believing that it was an air attack. I'm even more interested about this event
18 July 1943
Barge Dunarea-1 lost due M-111 torpedo attack. Romanian or German barge? Confirmed or not?
29 July 1943
Barge EL-74 lost on mines of L-4. Romanian or German barge? Confirmed or not?
25 October 1943
Barge Tyra-5 lost due M-112 torpedo attack. Romanian or German barge? Confirmed or not?
27 April 1944
Details about the Naval Engagement. I've read the Soviets had TK-332, TK-343, TK-344. How many and who were the Axis ships? TK-322 was sunk by Romanian gunfire. Causalities?
Corvette Admiral Ghikulescu reported to have get some hits by MTBs gunfire, light damages or splinter damages? I've read of causalities (1 KIA, 1 WIA) confirmed?
Amount of causalities of the UJ-104 ? I've read two destiny of the ship... some say that was simply damaged, and then sunk by Soviet aircrafts later. Other said that split in two, part was sunk and the survived cut wreck was towed away (and later sunk by air raids, in every case however i think it was already a "total loss" considering the amount of damage and impossibility to repair and return in service her in April 1944)
11 May 1944
Barge CNR-1468 lost on mines of L-4. Romanian or German barge? Confirmed or not?
I don't list this one because i think it's more important of all the others
And it concern the famous submarine Delfinul.
If i'm correct the Delfinul reported to have been subjected to massive attack of air-launched anti-submarine bombs. The damages has been reported as "Heavy" and the same Soviets believed to have sunk the submarine.
The Delfinul entered in general repair as soon as she returned (3 July 1942) and she never returned operative, and it wasn't repaired neither when in 23 August 1944. Almost 2 YEARS later.
There could be a bit of more explains?
There is a full list of the amount of damage suffered during the last air attack?
A full list of the of repairs done in 2 years, and why they were not completed?
I could mention that seems strange to me that there was not intention to repair it in a considerable good amount of time, because the Romanian Navy was working on Marsuinul and Rechinul...
Also i've to say that the Soviet Navy when confiscated the submarine... for what i've read they've not put her on sea because already in bad conditions. And used it to take spare parts.
This is usually the fate of submarines that are considered not serviceable and not in condition (or not whorty) to be repaired...
In the end i think that the Delfinul's damage can be considered an effective Soviet succes (that deprived their enemies's naval forces of an important element), and the same submarine can be designated as a "war total loss"
I've also read that the Delfinul was used to train the crew for the other two submarines still on building. But the Delfinul did not returned on sea, right? What was exactly her function? It was used as a static training place on ground for sailors that toured in it?
The repairs however should not have been completed in every case, because Soviet reported to have found her in bad conditions.
|Posted by: Petre March 10, 2013 02:20 pm|
| Many things here. A good idea can be to read this Forum. It is hard with copies or reports from war dyaries and official archivies.
Let's try to take it easy (few days).
26 June 1941
Today the story is enough clear. They were no Subs. and no MTB's. The MTBs were in port and came later, to save survivers. Sub. Delfinul was far away...
Here is the soviet Report on that event, made on Aug.1942, who says a Sub. launced torpedoes at 0700 and were launched deepcharges (4 large + 6 small).
|Posted by: lupodimare89 March 10, 2013 03:26 pm|
| Absolutely no problem Petre ^^
I'm very fascinated in naval warfare on eastern front...
I've started a thread also on the good Axis forum, and there is a a number of very friendly Finnish users that pull out of the hat screens of old papers done during the war with the true report of clashes in Baltic Sea.
Lots of many things came out (also checking Morozov works, sadly i've not the books but on internet something can be found) ... some Finnish/Italian official claims (and Germans) turned to be "over"claims, while some degree of damages inflicted by Soviets units turned out to be partially truth (as an incredible action of a pair of Soviet gunboats that on Gulf of Finland claimed to have sunk with soviet-style "Taran" attack a convoy of barges... it turned out that actually happened for real, with Finnish old sources that reported the loss of 4motorboats and 2barges(+2not repaired))
Sadly it's less probably that a similar work can be done for German (i suppose that many old papers, diaries and official report expecially concerning smaller crafts were lost during the conflict)
Was hoping that something similar could have been done by someone from Romania..
But considering the different post-war of Finland compared with Romania, it's less luckily i think : /
Sadly i've read that Romanian units were not much involved in small crafts engagements (MTBs vs patrols/small gunboats) it's right? If something can surface, it will be an interesting discover ^^
Also i've think to make a large general topic (and not many little ones) sticking together all the most obscure and unclear event of naval warfare on eastern front.
|Posted by: Victor March 11, 2013 07:56 am|
| There are comprehensive works on the Romanian Royal Navy's actions during WW2, many of them doublechecked with Soviet sources to which there was easy access during the post-war era.
There are also on this very forum many topics dedicated to naval actions in the Black Sea. Please browse through the older topics in the Navy subforum.
|Posted by: lupodimare89 March 11, 2013 09:53 am|
I'm sorry but... i've already done it : /
I've checked all the past discussion of this Navy section and this is the list of the things i've not found a clear reply or sites/comments here or other sites that tell different things (i could have missed some things, but about many i'm sure to have found nothing/few details/contraddictory reports).
Also many of the question i've wrote are about small details i've missed to find.
The only author that i've found is Morozov, and sadly i can't read (or find) his books being not-russian speaker and neither so great with english too..
It's already pretty hard for me searching amoung russian sites because i've to translate with internet (and then understand what's translated, that's not ever clear)
|Posted by: lupodimare89 March 11, 2013 10:04 am|
Apart for the possibilities rised by that same article (that i've read in other place) of presence of ShCh-206 (even if i've read that many say it's unlikely).
However i'm sure to have read in some description of the battle that MTBs Viforul and Vijelia tried to sail close the Kharkov, but received fire and decided to stop the attack.
IF the Viforul and Vijelia launched their torpedoes, this could explain the torpedoes seen by Kharkov.
Or they could have been launched by aircrafts.
There is not a full report of German/Romanian air attacks on Kharkov? Also Kharkov claim to have shot down an aircraft at least...
|Posted by: Victor March 12, 2013 12:40 pm|
| 13 December 1942 - Smeul vs. Soviet gun boats
Regarding NMS Delfinul one must take into account the following facts from the summer of 1942:
1. the Soviet stretch of Black Sea coast was getting shorter day by day and their transports could easily stick to the coastline
2. Soviet shipping was far, far away from Romanian waters, hence more difficult to attack by a relative low autonomy sub
3. NMS Delfinul was a ship in being and this was enough to make teh Soviets divert resources into defending their convoys
4. the main task of the Romanian Royal Navy was to defend the Axis convoys to Odessa, Crimea and the Bosphorus and the few available resources were better invested in this
5. the German 30th Uboot Flotilla was coming to Romania and would become operational later that year
6. NMS Rechinul and Marsuinul were under construction at the time and were more advanced technologically.
|Posted by: lupodimare89 March 12, 2013 03:29 pm|
Thanks Victor ^^ Even if i've already read that topic and my questions were more focused about if someone know of official diaries of mission that often describe the actions minute by minute..
I had found a number of help by this point of view from Finnish users about the naval warfare in Baltic Sea. But after all Finland had a very different post-war then Romania, and possibly many dates and archivies were lost in 1944 and again in 1989.
I think this line was already wrote, possibly on some Rom. book but it's not exactly correct : /
Soviets actually believed to have sunk the Delfinul that time, so all their concerns were later focused on fears for Germans and Italians submarines (even if the last ones proved to be only the CB class). I've read that the Soviets were actually surprised when the say the Delfinul damaged but in front of their eyes.
It "was" possibly a "ship in being" unit before the damage. (even if i don't think it's exact this too... because the Delfinul was a capable submarine that could have actually managed to do more, with a bit more of luck) but surely not after the last air attack.
Submarine are well capable as defensive actions too, and checking the basic data actually the Delfinul even if of 1930 was larger and had better range, weapons and speed then the Finnish Vetehinen class. Finnish managed to use them well as defensive boat against Soviet sub. and the Deflinul had all the abilities to do an even better job. It's sad that it had not the occasion to do it...
I don't think this is so relevant. If the submarine was not damaged, the Delfinul could have surely kept on doing offensive or defensive war patrols until the end. It was a submarine of 1930 after all... not the most modern but neither a boat of 1920 (and Soviet after all used older or same-age classes as the AmericanHolland, the Dekabrist and the Leninets first class).
|Posted by: Victor May 03, 2013 01:27 pm|
| You chose to ignore the main point: from the summer of 1942, the ChF was out of Delfinul's reach operating from Constanta.
No Romanian description of the incident mentions the torpedo hitting. The torpedo passed by the stern.
There were NMS Vijelia and Viscolul. They launched all four torpedoes in the dark towards the silhouettes of the Soviet ships near the Odessa harbor. No explosion was recorded, but the sailors from the Viscolul claimed that they saw a fuel leak in the water (actually a large stain on the water surface having a different color than the water) from where their second torpedo was supposed to have hit. The Soviet ship returned fire, but fired mostly in the air, probably thinking it was subjected to an air attack (the Vosper class MTBs had RR Merlin engines). No damage was suffered by the two MTBs, but on the return trip, one of them ran aground on a sand bank in front of Sf. Gheorghe and it took several hours to pull it back into the deep water.
|Posted by: lupodimare89 May 15, 2013 10:59 am|
| CB class : 7.5knots surfaced, 7knots submerged, range of 1400 miles if surfaced
IIB class: 13 knots surfaced, 7 knots submerged, range of 2700 nautical miles
Delfinul: 14 knots surfaced, 9 knots submerged, range of 2000 nautical miles
I could be wrong (and google maps could be wrong too) but nautical miles distance from Costanta to Batumi are 590,68 nautical miles. Very much INTO the range of Delfinul, without considering the fact that submarine had operated against Istanbul-Batumi line.
However this whole discussions is pointless because after talking with a russian user that has soviet old data of operations, he said that at the time and location of the multiple attacks on Delfinul none of them could have be done by Soviet forces, with the few air operations done on ground.
The attacks (done with a lesser degree then reported by Delfinul) could have been all friendly fire attacks from German units.
Thanks for further replies about the other events.
I'm currently focusing on ASW operations, expecially involving contacts and actions of submarines Rechinul and Marsuinul now.
|Posted by: Folins January 04, 2016 08:13 pm|
| Caro Lupo,
I've just found your interest in WWII Romanian Navy Black Sea operations.
A very interesting documentary can be found on VP (a Romanian TV station), named "EPOPEEA MARINEI ROMANE" by cinethronixtv.
They uploaded on YouTube just a short presentation of it.
Try contact them for the entire documentary (8 episodes, I think) or go look for it on I-net.
I found it very well documented and plenty of veterans were interviewed.