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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Royal Navy > «British Power Boat» class fate.|
|Posted by: Sachsen April 17, 2005 03:40 pm|
|Please, suggest about fate of boats of the «British Power Boat» class after September 5 1944, whether they were reset from USSR and whether included in Romanian navy of a boat of the MAS class.|
|Posted by: Iamandi April 18, 2005 07:50 am|
This subject - Power Torpedo Boat - was presented in an old issue of Modelism magazine, before 1990. But - maybe i'm wron - in that article says Romania received Power TB from Germany, or Italy. Or, was about the torbedo tubes/launchers provenience?
Of course, i ask miself why Germany or Italy used "Power" word...
Maybe, someone know more exact data. I also want to know more.
|Posted by: Victor May 08, 2005 03:00 pm|
|The Germans captured the boats in a shipyard in Holland in 1940. Their official name was Gusto Power Boats.|
|Posted by: Petre March 24, 2009 09:23 pm|
| The TM-51 class, Dockyard NV Werf Gusto, Schiedam, NL.
The prototype built 1939 in England at the Power Boat Company. The Gusto Dockyard received the order for ten units, numbering TM-52 to 61, of which the first two apparently were identical to the prototype, but the others seemed to be considerably larger. The boats, uncompleted at the dockyard, were captured by the Germans. The work on TM-52 and 53 had progressed far enough to complete her, and they were commissioned in 08.1940. The others were commissioned in the period between 12.1941 and 09.1942 with modified designs by Fr.Lussen Werft in Vegesack, Germany. TM-52, 53, 58, 59 passed to Bulgaria, the others, to Romania (completted in Galatzi shipyard, renamed Vedenia, Vântul, Vijelia, Viforul, Vârtejul and Vulcanul). The boats sailed from Germany on Danube River. No relevant missions. The Soviets confiscated 4 boats in Varna and 4 boats in Constanta ( not clear about Vijelia and Viforul), later returned. Deleted in 50's.
|Posted by: Sachsen March 26, 2009 04:23 am|
| Unfortunately only in Russian
FREE ONLINE TRANSLATOR AND DICTIONARY
|Posted by: Petre March 26, 2009 02:13 pm|
| Hello Sachsen and thanks. I can read in Russian. There are some differerences in :
( Boevye katera, Typ „BPB”) most accurate webpages, in Russian.
Also see good info’s :
in Bulgarian (!), with their story.
The TM 51 class appear on :
but unfortnately incorrect in his conclusion.
|Posted by: Sachsen March 26, 2009 06:06 pm|
| Hello Petre! Unfortunately on a site:
http://vimpel.boinaslava.net/index.php?module=bg_TKA_BPB - there is a small mistake under the Dutch and German names of boats 6 and 7.
Boats of type S 151 - S 158 are the further development German Schnellboote while boats of type S 201 - S 210 were under construction on the basis of Dutch type TM-51. It is Enough to look at photos and schemes of boats of type S 151 - S 158 to see, that they cannot concern to type TM-51 in any way.
On boats TM-63 and TM-64, specified a site http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/mtb/typ_bpb.htm#bpb what exactly they are boats 6 and 7, I can not agree, as the information on exact renaming boats is extremely poor to do final conclusions.
|Posted by: Petre March 27, 2009 05:38 pm|
| Well, Sachsen, today surfing the net, maybe I found the winner :
Conclusion : 2 Gusto TM 52-53 (sabotated), smaller type, become S 201-202, then passed to Bulgaria (re-motorised on RollsRoyce). 8 Gusto TM 54-61, larger type, become S 151-158 ( 7. S-boot flottille ), and 8 remaining Gusto (…) aka S-159-166 (unfinished ???)… must be what we are looking for : 2 for Bulgaria and 6 for Roumania (all on RollsRoyce Merlin, from british wreck-planes).
I think no more hulls, but can’t be sure.
The pictures in RU and BG sites show ( and I don't know why ) only the smaller model ( continuous deck, tubes on deck ) On GE sites, the hulls have forecastle, covering tubes.
|Posted by: Sachsen March 28, 2009 05:52 am|
| Hello Petre! And why you do not consider, what boats S 159 - S 166 can be continuation of type S 151??? On boats S 201 - S 210 - if at you does not cause trust my site - http://navyworld.narod.ru/sb5.htm take please the directory all dear E. Groener "Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815-1945 " Band 2 Torpedoboote, Zerstoerer, Schnellboote, Minensuchboote, Minenraeumboote and on pages 171-172 (the edition of 1999) or on page 145 (the edition of 1983) you can familiarize, that the dear master considers about these boats.
S 201 - S 202 x TM 52-53, S 203- S 210 x TM 63-70
a) Niederlaend. Torpedo-Motorboten (Typ brit. Power-boat, Lizenzbau der Werft) Stahl-V-Spant-Wellenbinder mit 1 Stufe / Seitenhoehe 2,52 m.
3 Rolls-Royce-Merlin ..zyl.-Viertakt-Otto / 3 Ruder.
c) 2 Decks-Tr-53,3 (2) / 1 Mk-3,7 (2000) / 2 - 2 (4000) / 6 WaBos.
d) Ab Beaufort 3 eingeschraenkte Seefaehigkeit; bereits bei Seegang 1-2 starke Erschuetterungen, die Ausguck, Navigation und FT-Bedienung stark beeintraechtigen.
Monoevrieren bei hohen Geschwindigkeiten sehr gut. Drehkreis kleiner als bei deutschen S-Booten; bei geringen Fahrtstufen jedoch Umkehr dieses Verhaeltnisses! Anlegemanoever oft schwierig, da alle Schrauben rechtsgaengig, Boote beim Rueckwaertslaufen nur sehr langsam ansprachen und schon geringer Wind aufgrund des hohen Vorschiffes ein Abtreiben verursachte = Einschleppen wurde angeraten.
e) Besatzung: 14 /
f) Probefahrtergebnis S 202 ohne Ausruestung auf der Maas max. 42,5 kn; mit deutschen Tr-53,3 anstelle der vorgesehenen Tr-45 max. 34,5 kn. Ab S 204 wegen Mangels an Tr Fertigstellung als Ujaeger ohne Tr (Ersatzboote fuer Schnelle U-Jagdgruppe) geplant (11.40).
g) S 201 x TM 52 ( . .40) A 20.8.40, 12.9.40 zur Erprobung an 2. S-Fl.; gestrichen aus der Liste der Kriegsschiffe 20.1.41, an Bulgarien verkauft; Nr. 4, 9.44 sowj. Beute: TKA 961, 2.4.45 re: Nr. 4, 1960 gestrichen aus der Liste der Kriegsschiffe.
S 202 x TM 53 ( . .40) 17.9.40, zur Erprobung an 2. S-Fl.; gestrichen aus der Liste der Kriegsschiffe 20.1.41, an Bulgarien verkauft; Nr. 5, 9.44 sowj. Beute: TKA 962, 2.4.45 re: Nr. 5, 1960 gestrichen aus der Liste der Kriegsschiffe.
S 203-210 x TM 63-70 12.40 Bau wegen fehlender Tr und Wendegetriebe gestoppt, fertiges Baumaterial (evtl. auch Fertigbauten7) Mitte 1941 bis Ende 1942 an Rumaenien und Bulgarien verkauft: bulg. F 6-7, 9.44 sowj. Beute: TKA 964-965, 2.4.45 re: F 6-7, 1960 br.
|Posted by: Petre March 28, 2009 01:49 pm|
| Hallo again Sachsen, what we have :
http://navyworld.narod.ru/sb5.htm says : S 203-210 were S 201 type, smaller, and all 8 boats passed to BG & RO. Were parts, taked from Gusto.
http://navyworld.narod.ru/sb4.htm says, (like lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de) : S 159-166 ( buid M 106-113), type S 151, larger, were parts, taked from Gusto, and …Die 1941 bei Gusto in Auftrag gegebenen Boote S 159 - S 166 wurden im April 1942 stillgelegt.
German sites do not speak aboat S 203-210, can be the same 8 boats, S 159-166 !
http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/TM51_his.htm says : „The Gusto Dockyard received the order for ten units, numbering TM-52 to 61, of which the first two apparently were identical to the prototype, but the others seemed to be considerably larger. A second order was placed in March 1940, numbering TM-62 to TM-70.” I think they were also larger type.
http://vimpel.boinaslava.net/index.php?module=bg_TKA_BPB describes their boats No.6, 7 as larger, differing of smaller No.4, 5.
also describes romanian Gusto's as larger type.
The dear master E. Groener in fact talks aboat S 201-202.
So, what can I say ?
|Posted by: Sachsen March 28, 2009 03:52 pm|
|Good afternoon Petre! I have stated the point of view, I consider, that the Romanian and Bulgarian boats are was German S 203 - S 210 as well as it is specified at Groener. Though I earlier also found some discrepancies at Groener, but not in this case. Respectfully.|
|Posted by: Petre March 28, 2009 04:37 pm|
|Dear Sachsen, let's have a break. My intent is to visit "Muzeul Marinei Romane", maybe I'll find a picture with Gusto, to see how she looks, small or longer. See you soon !|
|Posted by: Sachsen March 29, 2009 04:20 am|
| № 5 "Vântul"
№ 9 "Vulcanul"
|Posted by: Petre March 29, 2009 04:40 am|
|Thank's for pictures. I can see small boats, with 2 Deck T.Tubes-53,3. Bye !|
|Posted by: Victor March 30, 2009 06:06 am|
Please mention the sources for the photos you posted, as required by the forum rules. Thank you.
|Posted by: Sachsen March 30, 2009 04:47 pm|
|Excuse for a mistake, photos are taken from the book dr. ing. Cristian Craciunoiu " Vedetele Torpiloare din Marina Romana "|
|Posted by: Petre May 05, 2009 06:46 pm|
| On the site forums.airbase.ru, somebody wrote on Feb.2006 :
From the Romanian section of the future dictionary "МК" (?) about All East and South Europe WW2 (?) - as preliminary :
Torpedo boats of type "ТМ" (6 units) :
“Vedenia”, “Vantul”, “Vijelia”, “Viforul”, “Vartejul”, “Vulcanul”.
Have entered into system 1942.
32 tonns, 21,34×4,1×1,4 m; 3 gasoline 2850 HP; 35 kts. Crew 14, 2 - 533 mm TT, 2×1 - 20 mm.
Former Dutch TMB series ТМ 52, which were under construction on shipyard Gusto in Shiedam (British Power Boat licence). The Dutch numbers, presumably, TM-62 – TM-67. In May 1940 are grasped by Ge. on building berths and included in Ge.Navy as S-203 – S-208 (?), in the end of 1941 are sold (?) to Romania, in not complete condition, towed on Danube to Galatzi Shipyard 20.3.1942, on the way having received ice damages. Were complete motorised and armed since Jun. 1942. Named No. 4-9. First three ready 22.11.1942, other three 24.12.1942. Actually because of absence of engine couplers and of some other systems, long time were disabled. “Vedenia”, “Vantul” and “Vulcanul” was definitively completed by the end of 1943, and the others three – only in Apr.-May 1944. Wooden hulls (?), engines Rolls-Royce Merlin III, but the absence of spare parts has generate considerable difficulties. Were armed by 20 mm aviation guns Hispano-Suiza, at some low-caliber MG's were mounted. Just limited applications, basically escort missions. Five units 5.9.1944 have passed under Sov. control in Constanza. “Vedenia”, some time used for Sov.Command needs, then seized Sep.10, 1944. In Sov.Black Sea Fleet as ТК-951 – ТК-954, ТК-956 - TK-957. Returned to Romania Oct.12, 1945 in Galatzi, but not re-included in Ro.Navy because of bad technical condition and absence of spare parts. Later have been broken.
|Posted by: Tiornu April 08, 2011 11:32 pm|
This is very informative. Where did you find this material?
|Posted by: Petre April 09, 2011 06:36 am|
| It started with Google search :
(Try to read all links before.)
Then, my conclusion has come.
But I found something new :
|Posted by: Radub April 09, 2011 08:46 am|
The Navy Museum in Constanta has little information on the Gusto MTBs, but they still have one of the turrets from such a MTB on display.
To help you with your research, it is worth considering that the design is based on the British Power Boat Company (BPB) 70ft Private Venture (PV70) MTB.
Google "British Power Boat Company PV70 MTB"
This was also built by Elco as the "Elco 70ft PT" but with a variety of elaborate upper structures and was further developed into other very successful types.
The RAF used it also a a "rescue launch" (no torpedo tubes, light armament).
If you are into MTBs, a very good book that is worth reading is "Allied Coastal Forces of World War II, Volume II: Vosper MTBs & U.S. ELCOs" by John Lambert & Al Ross.
The book has no info on the BPBs in Romania (though it deals briefly with the Romanian Vospers), but it shows the lineage and development of the BPB PV70 in America.
|Posted by: bansaraba April 09, 2011 10:00 am|
| Here is a color picture of "Viscolul" from WWII (Military History of Romanian People, vol. 6):
What are those flags?
|Posted by: Radub April 09, 2011 10:13 am|
Later edit. Looks like the photo may be a "colourised" black and white photo. The flag should be blue and white not red and white.
|Posted by: bansaraba April 09, 2011 10:29 am|
|It is not colorized, in fact it has the characteristic hues of Agfacolor films. I've digged up a bit about the flags and it seems they are the letter "C" in German flag code. I'm not sure about their significance, though.|
|Posted by: Radub April 09, 2011 10:53 am|
| I just looked in the Modelism book on Romanian MTBs and there is one more photo that shows the flag was red and white.
|Posted by: Tiornu April 09, 2011 12:39 pm|
| The Netherlands web site gives a clue about why this matter has been so confusing for me. Lenton's book about the Dutch Navy confuses the TM51 type with the larger TM54, saying that the Bulgarians got enough TM54's (the German S151-158 type) to have a total of eight MTBs (though I believe they had only seven, according to Todorov's book The Ships of the Bulgarian Navy). Maybe the Dutch hull numbers have caused the trouble. The smaller boats were numbered (apparently) TM51-53, 63-70, overlapping the larger boats TM54-61. (Where is TM62?) My older Groner edition makes a little error in forgetting S210 (TM70).
Todorov describes all Gusto boats as the same size.
The sovnavy-ww2.by.ru site appears to make the same mistake as Conway's Fighting Ships, saying the Romanians got only four Power boats. Because it forgets Viforul and Vijelia, I think it must be because of the reused names.
Groner does not mention S159-166, so I think navyworld.narod.ru site must be mistaken on that.
Does sovnavy-ww2.by.ru, vimpel.boinaslava.net, or navyworld.narod.ru list its sources?
|Posted by: Petre April 10, 2011 08:13 am|
|Posted by: Sachsen May 06, 2011 07:43 am|
Furthermore Groener, I use a large number of other sources.
On the boat S-159-166 can be found here:
Regards, Senotrusov Viatcheslav (www. navyworld.narod.ru)
|Posted by: Tiornu May 10, 2011 07:14 pm|
|Excellent! Thank you very much.|