|Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Reenactment > Looking to buy Reproduction Uniform|
|Posted by: rwes0917 February 09, 2011 11:46 pm|
| This is my first posting on this forum. I am looking to begin Romanian WWII reenacting in the United States with some friends. I am looking to require any and all items useful to a Romanian reenactor. I have not been able to successfully contact a supplier for good reproduction uniforms.
Is there a way to contact MMN shop?
|Posted by: darius1941 February 13, 2011 01:02 am|
| What part of the country are you living in if I may ask.
There are a few of us members of this Forum doing ww2 Romanian on the east coast for a while now and I was wondering are you here in this area or in another part of the states.
Do you have any equipment/uniform to get a start?
|Posted by: 21 inf February 13, 2011 06:02 am|
| MMN shop doesnt sell ww2 romanian uniforms reproductions and no other reproductions at all. If you want some romanian ww2 repro equipment, please say want would you like to buy and I'll see how I can help. Here is a pic of me and my fellow reenactors reenacting ww2 romanian soldiers, last summer.
|Posted by: darius1941 February 13, 2011 03:12 pm|
| What are the reproduction you can provide us?
As for myself I am looking for a uniform and maybe a larger belt/buckle.
My apology for jumping in on your offer of help to the other guy but we are still working with a shortage of uniforms and equipment for this impression.
Some of us have been able to get a good impression together and some guys like myself are moving some what slower.
|Posted by: Alexei2102 February 14, 2011 10:43 am|
| You may try to browse www.okazii.ro - some items do appear there from time to time, perhaps you might get lucky.
|Posted by: rwes0917 February 14, 2011 06:02 pm|
I am aware of the 9th Romanian Division reenacting group. I was thinking of starting my own group along with a few friends rather than join this group. I am aware of Schipperfabrik's Romanian uniform, but I don't care for it.
I am looking for a wool tunic, trousers, cap, greatcoat, and puttees, and all combat equipment.
|Posted by: rwes0917 February 14, 2011 06:05 pm|
I want a complete late-war wool uniform. How can I get one like this?
|Posted by: rwes0917 February 14, 2011 06:10 pm|
|I have some friends in the United States who are experienced reenactors, and we are looking to do something that is more research-based and scenario-driven than typical reenacting in the US. We want to employ real WWII tactics at events, rather than the free-for-all melee of most tactical events. We are looking to do more of the "first person" and "total-immersion style" reenacting. This is why I would prefer to start my own unit, rather than fall in with the 9th Division. I have an alternative view of what reenacting should be about.|
|Posted by: Alex30cag February 14, 2011 06:23 pm|
|if this can help you......|
|Posted by: Alex30cag February 14, 2011 06:26 pm|
|Posted by: 21 inf February 14, 2011 07:02 pm|
| The photos I post here are not 100% percent exactly with ww2 uniforms, they are let's say 90% acurate, but the 10% missing is easy to corect. We are wearing comunist era romanian winter uniforms, which are basically the romanian uniforms from ww2. The little things that are not acurate is the colour, which is not such kaki as in ww2 (hard to find nowadays such kind of colour) and some minor details in tayloring tips of epauletes and some 2-3 other not so evident things. Except someone who is extremely well documented in such details regarding ww2 romanian uniforms, no one can spot the minor diferences.
As backpacks we use also the romanian comunist era rucksacks, which are 90% similar with thos used in ww2. The steelhelmets are original dutch helmets employed in ww2 by romanian army. The putees are homemade from old romanian comunist era greatcoats. The caps are repros, taylored especially for us from reused material provided from old greatcoats, as the putees. We use leather belts from, again , romanian comunist era army, but with beltbuckels removed and replaced with one's with no markings on it. The breadsack is made especially for us or a 1950's romanian breadpack, which is also very similar with the one from ww2.
I am not usually providing equipment for reenactment, but when I was last year in Slovakia, I saw how hard one from a foreign country can get romanian equipment, even it is very close to Romania. So, I will try to help you, but I can't promise that I'll be able to help you with all the equipment you require. If you are ok with this, if you are ok with what I told you above about the equipment we use (you also have the photos for exemplification) please PM me.
|Posted by: darius1941 February 15, 2011 01:10 am|
| I think the photos are great and all of you in the photos look great!
You had me fool as to the origins of the uniforms as I thought they were Tailored.
I did notice the color of the wool was different but I thought this was because you had only a certain color wool to work with.
The color is not a problem with me or for that matter anything else that you are useing from the communist era.
The idear of starting your own Romanian unit and going total immersion is a wonderful idear and one that I had thought about over the years but could never put in practice.
I look forward to seeing your group in action.
|Posted by: rwes0917 February 20, 2011 03:14 am|
|What kind of boots are worn in the photos, and how correct are they?|
|Posted by: 21 inf February 20, 2011 06:47 am|
|The proper and acurate boots are extremely hard, if not imposible to find. Even if one could maybe find some proper boots, it would be very costly. So we use with good results any kind of black boots, civilian or military. As we wear putees, no one can see major diferences, as long as the civilian or military boots we use are black and simple models, with no fancy decorations. I personally use modern norvegian infantry boots.|
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 February 20, 2011 06:37 pm|
| Here you can find a series of rules about the uniform of the romanian army between 1941 - 1944
|Posted by: 21 inf February 20, 2011 07:34 pm|
I believe that this equipment is acurate enough to reenact a regular ww2 romanian soldier.
|Posted by: mihnea February 21, 2011 11:42 am|
| There were summer tunics in WWII and maybe also pants but these might actually be training pants used for the training uniform. The summer tunics were made from yellowish thick cotton, not khaki like the wool uniform.
I consider cotton pants as incorrect for reenacting WWII, as we should represent the common romanian soldier.
I'm the guy in the middle with brown german boots and yellow sumer tunic (m1939), my uniform is very correct.
For boots I recommend German low boots but do not stain them black, live the natural color, very similar boots were used in the inter war era and are ok for Romanian WWII reenactment.
I don't recommend the archives documentation for WWII reenactment there are many things in those documents are only wishful thinking of the romanian high command and many times not what was happening on the front. So the info from Traditia Miltara website is incomplete without a very thorough knowledge of romanian and foreign uniforms, a study of WWII photos and a personal study of the archives, clippings form documents are not ok, as they can be interpreted.
|Posted by: mihnea February 21, 2011 11:45 am|
Good examples, I also recommend them.
|Posted by: darius1941 February 26, 2011 12:00 pm|
| At some of the East Front events we will stay overnight and pitch tents/shelter quarters,ect
What I would like to ask is there a post war Romanian issue shelter piece which we may be able to use?
Would anyone have a photo of these or I would like too see a photo of a original ww2 issue shelter piece.
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 February 26, 2011 05:19 pm|
| The regulations say that the summer tunics and pants were not only meant
for combat, but also for parade. For further positive information please see
the topic started on 12mar10 on the forum of ASOCIATIA TRADITIA MILITARA,
where only facts, evidence and documents count:
|Posted by: mihnea February 27, 2011 08:51 pm|
| Are you a reenactor from ATM? Please can you post the translated document were this information is posted, the link you posted is in Romanian only. Please do so, as there are many non romanian speakers on this forum.
Please tell me what do you think is more relevant a photograph form WWII or an archival document with the theoretical description of what should a Romanian soldier wear on the front line?
Also can you provide any proof (archival document or authentic photo) of the use of the Md 35 gas masks in WWII, as I see some reenactors use them. This is very important subject as the Md 35 gas masks are very common on the market today. I ask you this because you mentioned "where only facts, evidence and documents count" and I have seen them being used in some photos on the forum you mentioned.
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 04, 2011 10:52 am|
| Here are the answers you seek:
- yes, I am proud to be an ATM reenactor - this is why I am so knowledgeable on this subject. Are you perchance a reenactor from A6D? I sense subjectivity in your approach and in your switching from fabric and color of summer uniforms, to gas masks. You might want to look closer at the uniforms of your own group, but let us not stray from the subject.
- the translation of some of the relevant documents posted on the ATM forum on this subject at http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268419686:
* Report to the Cabinet of the State Leader (Conducator) 2009/M 02jan42 2 stars General Gh.Dobre: “by 01apr42 500.000 canvas pants shall be delivered (…):
a) pants made of tunic canvas (my comment: thicker => canvas tunics were already in use)
pants made of lining canvas (my comment: thinner) (…)”
Marshall Antonescu’s decision: “The Marshall approves the pants model presented to him (…)”
* “Information Report by the Ministry of National Defense: status of Equipment in May 1942 – General Pantazi:
VIII. In production: pants: summer canvas / lined canvas (Russian model) for winter”
* Circular Order Nr.24 / 18jun42 – Secretary General of the National Defense Ministry – General Davidescu:
All units west of the river Dnjester, that have seen action at the front, shall prepare following items for a Parade that will take place in Bucharest on 22jun1942: (…)
Officers, as well as enlisted men, with buttoned up canvas tunics, new canvas pants, (…)
15. Mar 2010:
* “As of 15 may 1943, (…) all troops shall wear summer clothing. Wool cloth uniforms shall be strictly forbidden. Wool cloth uniforms will be allowed exclusively for guard shifts during the night, in cold climate regions. (…)"
Should you consider that the complete translation of this text would be beneficial for foreigners, then please do it yourself.
or they can use google translate- documents and photos are all very relevant to the historic truth. You might consider it easier to merely look at the pictures, but try also reading all the letters, you can do it. You may always consider that some orders were never obeyed and/or that some photographs depict exceptions; still they all are related to a historical reality. I remember that we had proven you wrong by showing you photos of Romanian soldiers praying on their knees, when you stated that Romanian soldiers never prayed did that, because regulations prescribed only the standing position for prayer: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244627470
- for pictures of Romanian soldiers in WWII clad in canvas summer uniforms, pls check again the ATM forum at: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268419686. You will notice that some wear them even in winter, some wear the tunics tucked into their pants, although we have the copy of a General Order that strictly forbids that - which means that the soldiers did not always abide by regulations. You can also find photos of Romanian soldiers in canvas summer uniforms in an excellent album, with very few uniformological mistakes - regarding the color of paratroops jump suits (kaki, not grey-blue), marines (kaki, not grey-blue), Palace guards (white aiguillettes, not yellow): Armata Romana 1941-1945, Editura RAI Bucuresti 1996, by C.Scafes, H.V.Serbanescu, I.Scafes, C.Andonie, etc. - pages: 25, 26, 29, 36, 46, 61, 62, 72, 85, 96, 117, 119, 169.
- for M35 gas masks, actually produced for civilian use, worn by Romanian soldiers, stay tuned on the ATM forum, they shall appear soon. I shall give you the link as soon as time permits.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 04, 2011 12:39 pm|
| In reenactment, the main point is to reenact the soldiers of given era as close to reality of time as it can be done. For the era when military regulations existed, is not to be forget that the regulations were the main basis for equiping soldiers. Of course, during times and war, might apear equipments which were not sticking with the regulations, but ... they existed. It is not ok to cosider that the equipment adopted in time of need was characteristic to a given army or to consider that all soldiers of an army obeyed blindly the regulations. Exceptions existed in all situations, they just have to be treated with common sense when reenacting. Regular equipment didnt excluded improvised, adopted or modified equipment and vice-versa, but in all cases, this were exceptions.
The documents presented by aviatorul2000 existed, as they were showing how romanian army tried to get equiped in time of need during ww2. This documents doesnt exclude existing regulation and the questions still remains open in what percent were this "alarm" uniforms really made. Even in the case all were tailored, 500.000 canvas pants were suficient to equip only a part of ww2 romanian army and one has not to forget that when new equipment was issued, from the begining a significant part of it was sent not to the troops, but in depots, as reserves.
|Posted by: mihnea March 05, 2011 04:37 pm|
| @aviatorul2000: Nr1 If you are a member of ATM I'm sure you were very rigorously briefed with informations about me as I'm one of the founders of your association. Fortunately I have moved one since then.
Nr2 I will always speak for me alone and not the reenactment group I'm part of. "You might want to look closer at the uniforms of your own group, but let us not stray from the subject." so that is not of my concern. But you seem to represent Asciatia Traditia Militara so I think it's correct to point to some details that are worn by some of your association, not you alone.
Nr3 On the subject of subject of summer cotton uniforms I have said above: "things in those documents are only wishful thinking of the romanian high command" have you ever been in the archives? Posting only bits of documents can lead to misinterpretation. Also because for this era we have many photos I'm going to believe the photos and in the book you recommend there 6 photos of romanian soldiers wearing canvas pants on pages: 25, 46, 61, 72, 73 (you missed this one), 117 the other 8 show only summer tunics witch are well known, but there are a lot more photos of romanian soldiers wearing wool uniforms in the summer. Again I remind you we are recreating the romanian soldier from the war theaters (portrayed in the photos) not the one envisaged by generals and other in the high command (portrayed in the archives).
Nr4 Also remember you have never ever proven me wrong! You open a subject that was discussed on another forum on witch you have never posted a message. But because you accuse me I will clarify the subject as it is of interest for reenactors. There has never been a command to kneel for prayer in the romanian army from 1877-1945. Romanian soldiers did kneel at some religious services as this is the Orthodox tradition that at some certain points in the service the christians kneel but (extremely important) they kneel at the "order" of the priest they are not ordered by a army officer so this is not a military command. I have never said that romanian soldiers never knelled but I said they never did so at the command of an officer. You can read the topic again from that forum and clarify yourself.
Nr5 I imagine it's very hard to post a picture on a forum so you need many months to do so. Until then I won't change my opinion regarding the Md35 gas mask. Also I hope that the picture is of a soldier on the war front not some officer photographed in a studio or some archives document.
Nr6 It would be so nice if you could answer me directly, not after a consultation with your association members.
There are many other off-topic things in your message but I won't bother to answer to them.
|Posted by: mihnea March 05, 2011 05:13 pm|
|@21inf: I'm afraid we are waisting our time, I think you remember we have seen this type of behavior before.|
|Posted by: mihnea March 05, 2011 06:20 pm|
| Some romanian soldiers in summer uniforms:
From here http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5637&hl=summer%20tunics&st=0
And a colour one from here: http://honoretpatria.wordpress.com/category/7-trimise-de-cititori/jura-paun-marcu/
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 07, 2011 12:23 pm|
| I agree that most Romanian soldiers wore wool cloth uniforms during WWII,
irrespective of season, but many were issued summer uniforms.
> 21 inf: what you say is right, but here we were not talking about
percentages of implementation of these regulations; we were discussing if
canvas summer uniforms existed and were used by the Romanian army at the
front in WWII. If we have to answer by YES or by NO, then the answer is
>Mihnea: thank you for the photographs you have posted. A gallant gesture
that proves I was not wrong. I had not indicated the pages in the album
where soldiers were depicted during training - just those clad in canvas
summer uniforms in battle. If you follow the link to the ATM forum, you will
notice that some photos have been posted, including one in colors.
It would make sense to help your own comrades to improve their reenactment,
before publicly criticizing others, especially when this criticism is proven
About the kneeling for prayer, you had said in the beginning that Romanian
soldiers did never kneel down for prayer. We had answered immediately that
by regulations they did not, but in the field, sometimes they did kneel down
for prayer. You had asked for proof and we provided it. No need to be sore.
|Posted by: mihnea March 07, 2011 01:27 pm|
| I assume I'm talking, again, with an alias or a "voice" of the "great" ATM leader one of many present on other forums.
Nr1 Again, my criticism is not wrong (as I have never criticized, yet, ATM for wearing cotton/canvas uniforms), I have the same opinion regarding the use of cotton/canvas pants used by reenactors. I never said that cotton/canvas pants were not used. I said that they were less common than the wool ones witch you agree and therefore if I'm wrong you are also wrong.
Nr2 It's more correct to reenact romanian army in WWII in full wool uniform than to reenact in full cotton/canvas uniform, for summer events. So my colleagues are ok although for the moment we use almost unmodified RSR uniforms we will convert them to md 1924, closer to RSR md1966. But, also, WWII is not anymore our main era.
Nr3 I only criticized you for the Md35 gas masks and you only promised photos, until then,... I think I'm right.
Nr4 I have never said that "Romanian soldiers did never kneel down for prayer" I'm sure you understand romanian and are able to read that topic. If I ever did so please prove it. Yes I did say, many times, that the kneeling of romanian soldier in formation or otherwise is not mentioned in any regulations. Also please remember that we were talking in that topic about the position for prayer presented in the 1909 regulations and not about kneeling at religious servings presided by a priest. And in all the photos posted on the subject I'm sure that the soldiers did not kneel at the order of their NCO or Officer and then recited a prayer after their NCO or
Edit: Corrected some typos.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 07, 2011 04:21 pm|
| This discussion about summer uniforms and kneeling when praying is old and discussed on another forums. The summer uniforms existed and sometimes romanian soldiers in ww2 kneeled for praying. This were not situations mentioned by army regulations, so, for the sake of the past situations, it had to be mentioned like this. In Romania the public is ignorant about history and it would be for the common benefit to be stated when a situation is reenacted in relation with regulations or not. No one looses anything and everybody win something.
It is the same situation for ww1: transylvanian volunteers had usually regular uniforms, with slight diferences, and we mention the not regulamentary aspects all the time, in order to let public know what they cant figure by themself. There are situation when transylvanian volunteers had totally diferent uniforms in comparison with romanian army, but they were still soldiers of romanian army. If mentioned like this, there is no confusion, if otherwise, they might be easily regarded like austrian or hungarian soldiers, depends on the uniform.
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 11, 2011 09:45 pm|
| What both of you have now said strictly on this subject is correct,
although how the "ignorant public" is best served, is still a matter of debate. I remember that you, Mihnea, in WWII reenactments, have often chosen to wear rare pieces of equipment, like md.1923 uniform, textile helmet cover, and in WWI reenactments you alone have chosen to wear the mod.1895
greatcoat, etc., items that were not characteristic for the majority of Romanian soldiers. I think that reflecting the diversity of equipment is
beneficial; of course, as 21inf said, you must always inform the public - we
always do it and, I hope, so do you.
Please help your colleagues to adjust their RSR equipment for WWII at least
by replacing the RSR buttons and belt buckles that still have the communist
emblem, to add breast pockets on their tunics, to modify the epaulettes
(they need to be pointy or rounded towards the neck), to adopt less modern
Regarding the M35 gas masks, pls spare us your bitterness and follow the
|Posted by: mihnea March 12, 2011 08:36 am|
| I wear md 1924 great coat at WWII because it is a convertat RSR greatcoat md 1966 and this great coat is based on the md 1924 great coat, if I would have a custom made great coat it would be a 1939model. The 1893 great coat I use at WWI reenactments is unique in Romania and I use to portray the look of the romanian soldier in WWI there was a lot of 1893 equipment in use in WWI.
Unfortunately Stoica is clearly no expert in gas masks, there are so many big errors in that article that I was shocked (no mention of the md 39b, no mention of the md 32, confusion between md 35 and md32, confusion between romanian and german gas masks, no mention of the cavalery gas masks, misinterpretation of photos, etc.. finally no real proof towards md 35 gas masks used by the army, only the old excuse the "veterani"). Also it would be nice if he could post the source of the information. I have written two big articles on the roamanian gas mask in Buletinul Muzeului Militar National nr 2008 and 2009 (hope I'm remembering correct) they are based on archival documents, a study of the photos from MMN collection, a study of the MMN gas mask collection, my experience collecting romanian gas masks and a lot of books and other printed material from the era. I hoped to see an article on gas masks from Mirel at least he studies the archives and he is a real historian, not just an amateur.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 12, 2011 07:56 pm|
| Yes, dear aviatorul2000, we always inform the public, you dont have to worry about it and to be persuasive, cos doesnt work with me. Be a man and say straight what you have to say. Ask your ATM president how his persuasion worked on 2008 with me and my fellows. Also, ask him, if you are not the very himself, which I presume, how is the bayonet move that you show at every period you reenact: the one throwing the rifle in the air, catching it, struck with the rifle butt. This the move he learned it from ADS when he met them for the first time in Oradea and it is a move that we played with it, cos it is valid only for the nowaday romanian army. It didnt existed in the past, in ww2, ww1, 1877 or 1848 and so on. Ask him to show you the regulations were this move is described, lets say for the napoleonian era, where you use it, as the tape show.
Mihnea, why dont you post your informations about romanian ww2 army gas masks, and the sources, which I supose were studied with "acribie" (you know what I mean )?
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 13, 2011 02:27 pm|
| Gentlemen, you are just generically and vehemently rejecting any
information and evidence that comes from a certain direction. If ATM has
made any mistakes, that you did not prove yet, then we shall admit them and
correct them. The article is about gas masks used for reenactment, so why
would it dwell over different types of filters and masks, or over those for
cavalry? A forum is not made for expressing personal hatred, especially for
someone who did not harm you in any way, but for exchanging information.
Mihnea: your explanation regarding the uniformological exceptions you are
resorting to just prove my point - thank you. Also, ignoring the veterans'
eyewitness accounts has sometimes led you and others astray. By the way,
there are new photos with Romanian soldiers wearing summer canvas uniforms
in battle zones of WWII - not during training:
http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1268419686. They have not
been tampered with and do not worry about the source - they are all part of
the ATM archives.
21inf: the off-topic question about the strike with the rifle butt from
above shall be answered in due time. Stoica has confirmed that he had
learned about this move from your group, as something you had practiced in
the modern-day army - although the move was described only in the
regulations manual of 1955, but not anymore in the '80s - at least not in
those available in libraries of the mountain troops units of northern
Romania. However, I wish to point out that the main issue here, and in
reenactment in general, is not only what the regulations said, but what the
soldiers actuall did in battle - they did use this move since the dawn of
Regarding the initial topic, the obvious conclusion is that I have proven
that your statements: <<romanian army had no summer uniforms in ww2, only
winter uniforms>> and <<I consider cotton pants as incorrect for reenacting
WWII>> are not to be maintained by people with a clear conscience.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 13, 2011 02:54 pm|
| Ok, at least now i know who is behind the nick aviatorul2000.
Anyway, we never said that we learned the bayonet fight in mountain troops, we were infantry.
|Posted by: mihnea March 13, 2011 04:55 pm|
| I'm sorry but I have a "few small" problems with your last post:
1 " The article is about gas masks used for reenactment, so why would it dwell over different types of filters and masks, or over those for cavalry?" You must be jocking, if that post confuses gas mask models and details how can you use them for reenacting when you don't know what was used in WWII by the romanian army? This is just beyond realism. The information in that post is NOT CORRECT historically there are many mistakes, and BIG mistakes, not just small details.
2. "I consider cotton pants as incorrect for reenacting WWII" It is a personal opinion and it is my wright to have this opinion. I never said that they were not used, but that they were less common. I posted on the other page, a photo in color (original color, not a colored black and white), of a romanian soldier wearing m1941 pants made from cotton. They are different from the training pants that were simpler and straight cut. This photo is more important than any other on the subject as we clearly see that they are not training pants. You obviously confuse my opinion on reenactment with that on romanian military history. Something hisrically correct is not necessarily correct for reenactment. Also I consider german helmets incorrect also as they are not specific and don't represent the romanian soldier although there are pictures of german helmets used by the romanian army. Any problems with this opinion? (I'm not referring here to paratrooper helmets)
3. "They have not been tampered with and do not worry about the source - they are all part of
the ATM archives." At least on is from the MMN collection, a print of the picture doesn't mean that you own the wrights of that picture.
4. "they did use this move since the dawn of history." Really? You mean the dawn of rifles / muskets, as doing that with a bow or crossbow is a bit... . Have you ever touched a real (or a replica) flint lock musket from the napoleonic wars? I recommend to try your move with one, in a authentic formation not like in your demonstration spread 2m apart.
5. "you are just generically and vehemently rejecting any information and evidence that comes from a certain direction. If ATM has made any mistakes, that you did not prove yet, then we shall admit them and correct them." I have not rejected any information interpreted correctly. Please provide the source of the pattern of the "wind jacket" used by ATM, in my opinion they were smaller and used as a replacement of the wool or cotton tunic. Please explain how accurate is a ATM paratrooper jump suit made from two parts, the original suit, as proven by the original found by ATM was one piece. Also on the paratrooper jump suit, please provide a photo of the original jump suit were the pocket for the dagger is clearly visible, or the remains of this pocket.
You "asked" for it. And I have plenty more question about the uniforms and equipment ATM is using.
6. Remember I speak for myself, all the opinions posted here are mine not those of the reenactment group I'm part of.
7. Your silence on the kneeling subject means that you quietly approve me.
8. It would be nice to see a photo of you in one of your WWII uniforms so that we can help you improve it, if necessarily. This would help the foreign reenactors a lot. And also would enrich the information found on this english speaking forum.
|Posted by: mihnea March 13, 2011 05:04 pm|
I will, but it will take me some time as I need to prepare a few more photos as the articles in Buletinul MMN were unfortunately "thin" at this chapter because the format limited them and their size. Also I hve new items in my personal collection that also need to be documented.
Yes the ATM members have a very distinct writing habit that was clearly seen with the other two "mirrors" we have encountered on the A6D forum. Also they seem very quiet on their forum, with one exception, interesting. I wonder why?
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 15, 2011 07:24 am|
| 1. Mihnea, pls offer your factual information. I would be glad to learn more from you and to overlook your manners. We, from ATM, might not be experts on gas masks, but we proved that M35s were used, even if rarely, by Romanian soldiers in WWI. I remember we two used to be friends and enjoyed finding together things that seemed to contradict common and conventional knowledge - that was before you resigned from our group in 2008. Can't you get over it?
2. your personal opinion on cotton pants contradicts your personal opinion on greatcoats; if reenacting shows something that is historically correct, even if rare, then it is correct
2a. German helmets were worn by entire Romanian units, especially cavalry - there are very many photos and documents on the subject. However, it is also my personal choice to reenact WWII Romanian soldiers by wearing the Dutch helmet model - this does not mean that a German helmet would be incorrect
3. the pictures I have posted have been found by myself in the National Archives Fond Documente Fotografice. MMN might have an additional print of the same negative. The colored picture posted by stoica on the ATM forum is from the book "Decisive Battles of Hitler's War" by A.Preston, published by Chartwell Bools Inc. in 1977. It is funny that you ask me to reveal the sources of the photos on the ATM forum, but you seldom have given the good example – please do reveal your sources
4. I have used a flintlock replica in reenactment. As you know, hand to hand fighting is not allowed in Napoleonic reenactments - just pushing, with the musket held diagonally in front, bayonet pointing towards the sky. Hand to hand fighting tends to get ugly in real war and the first lines of the initially tight formations are being fringed and mangled. In those situations hits with the butt of a reversed musket occur very often. The manuals recommend 2m intervals when practicing - this is why in ATM demonstrations we do the same
5. I did not ask for any of your questions, of which you seem to think you no in advance the answers. I refrain from criticizing your group's uniformological shortcuts. I just want to exchange information
5a. as you know, the mountain troops' wind jackets, as other items of the Romanian uniforms, were made in many variations. We have several pictures in our archives - I will show you some shortly
5b. the original jumpsuit of Romanian paratroopers was made in one piece. Some of us, not all ATM members, have had to have them made in 2 pieces, but the pieces are being worn hefted together and are not to be worn separately during reenactment. You know because you are an insider. There are 2 reasons for this shortcoming: first, we did not find enough zippers in the correct length, color and material; second, because the original zippers did not open from both ends, so, for physiological reasons this solution is more comfortable
5c. you can see pictures of the knife pocket on the orginal paratrooper's jumpsuit at: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1300171570/0#0
6. it is strange that you do not care about your comrade's attire, but you do have a dire urge to help improve mine. Your criticism of the smaller flaws in other groups, before helping your own comrades to improve their more serious shortcomings, is very telling. Anyway, I acknowledge and understand your reluctance to talk about your comrades' equipment
7. I thought we were understood on the subject of Romanian soldiers kneeling for prayer: as we said since the beginning, in 2008, regulations and manuals never mentioned kneeling for prayer, but soldiers and officers sometimes did kneel down for prayer, while gathered, sometimes even in formation, and in uniform - see: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244627470/12#12
8. you can see me in WWII uniform at: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1285000154. I am the 1st from the right in the first photo posted on 26sep10 at 10:56. Your suggestions, as long as they are constructive and documented, will be most welcome"
|Posted by: mihnea March 15, 2011 12:57 pm|
| 1. Did you prove that Md 35 gas masks were used? In the two pictures you provide the model cannot be established 100% the civilian Md 1935 and military Md 1943 canister are almost identical is size. Also the the first picture is probably pre 1940 so it might not be a gas mask canister. The other is very blurry, a scan from a book, also this picture is from the winter 1944-1945 and in another picture from that same group of photos the gasmasks visible are all Md 1943 canisters. The picture presented as depicting a german gas mask is actually a romanian Md 1943 canister, same look as the german gas mask but very different size. I have told you were to find good information, the article has archival references that you can check.
2. Exactly, it contradict as it's a personal and subjective opinion. But I'm unique (helmet cover, winter camouflage, great coats, summer tunic, etc), it would be ok if there would appear a single reenactor in WWII gear with cotton pants, and until now it only happened twice (ZMMN 2005 and ZTM 2008) in 6 years of reenacting so it's ok (I don't consider those mistakes), but if an entire reenactment group would appear only with cotton pants I would consider that a mistake.
3. MMN has negatives, not only prints. But if they are from the National Archives they belong to the national archives, not to ATM. That famous color photo is not originally in color but it's painted, the source is not important I just wanted to point out that it's not correct to consider a recolored photo as a color photo because the colors are not correct. The photos I post that are from MMN collection I generally add a great big watermark so not to be replicated, before doing this I posted the source (the name of the book or otherwise) and for photos taken from the web I always post the link. If I ever forgot to mention the link show me the message and I will correct it immediately.
4. Unfortunately I have never seen a photo of you or any other ATM member using a replica that is accurate in size shape materials and mechanism. But I would like to see one. The Napoleonic tactics are based on mass of troops and not individual fighters such a move in a tight formation would be very difficult to make efficiently, in my opinion it's not a simple coincidence that it was presented in training manuals only when the rifles were very short.
5. I'm pointing out that those that consider them perfections make quite a lot of mistakes. The group I'm part of (A6D) makes a very different type of reenactment based more on living history and we do not consider us perfect, also we do not want to be perfect. Me on the other hand I want to have the best possible reproductions.
5a. I know many things, but I hope that the photos you promise are good quality and the details are visible. Not like the ones you provided for the Md 35 gas masks that are not clear.
5b. I observed that they are 2 piece jupsuit when I first saw them in public. At one of your events when I photographed them, so the public will also notice. I know that zippers are sold by the meter so this excuse is not realistic for me. And you don't use a very special zipper that cannot be found on the market.
I happy to know that my inquiry about jumpsuits has encouraged ATM members to search more information on these subjects. I helped you help yourselves and other reenactors, I have not given any information.
6. You have told me the mistakes of my reenactment colleagues although I already knew them. What do you want me to do more, force them to modify there privately purchased uniforms? With time and money I assure you that all of these problems will be corrected. I'm only a member in my association, and again I speak in my name only. You, as the secretary of ATM speak for the entire group so there is difference.
7. Isn't that exactly what I was saying?
8. I say, what about the cuffs, they should be closed with two buttons for the 1939 tunic. And what about the stainless steel "salad bowl" used as canteen on WWI backpacks? They don't look like the ones used by the romanian army.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 15, 2011 10:12 pm|
|Mihnea, you have so much free time to read and answer to a such long love letter, which seems to tell the same story that was already told elswhere? (i didnt bother to read all, cos is a deja vu and never ending story).|
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 16, 2011 08:05 pm|
| 1. I agree you are an expert on gas masks - pls tell us what is wrong in stoica's article, possibly without letting your emotions spill over.
About the M35, I think you are in denial phase. We did not prepare a case for a lawsuit; I am sorry that the quality of the photos does not satisfy you, but by their size, the horizontal lines and the fact that they are worn vertically, the canisters in those photos make reenactment with M35 canisters correct. Actually you have to prove that they were NEVER used by the Romanian army.
2. based on the evidence shown (documents and photos), ATM has just ordered summer pants for our whole group.
3. the colored photo is ORIGINAL and has not been modified in modern times. I do not intend to make a big fuss about copyrights for photos; you noticed I avoided showing those that belong to the museum and those published in the Romanian books, even if they contained good proof for the point I wanted to make
4. it is true that you have never seen an ATM member using a flintlock. This is beside the point, as you have not been appointed judge of reenacting. The tactics you describe are correct, but they do not take into consideration the phase in real wars that is not allowed in Napoleonic reenactment. See: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1300272188/1#1
5. everybody in ATM admires you efforts and achievements in acquiring the best possible equipment for reenacting
5a. I am not responsible for the quality of the pictures I find. As I told you, ATM also relies heavily on veterans' testimonies, that, unfortunately, you reject completely. We do not prepare for a lawsuit where we have to prove things that we know are right. We are known to be very careful about these things and have always corrected our mistakes when proven wrong. Regarding the wind jackets, we cannot be wrong, because we have been assured by veterans that we are right
5b. the zipper has to be kaki with yellow, stained metal. I am looking for some right now and do not find any. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Nobody, except you, has noticed our paratroopers jumpsuits were made in 2 pieces. You know from us. We do not give paramount importance to items that do not show, like underpants, lining, etc. I am glad you found the information interesting at http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1300171570. Please do not help just by first criticizing and asking for information only afterwards
6. I have not posted anything about most of the uniformological mistakes of your comrades, because this is not my aim and because I know the difficulties. Do not think that I do not know if I don't tell in public. Imagine the difficulties ATM has, since we reenact more military units and more historical epochs. We all do our best. Actually we invited you to cooperate with us, but you refused
7. I am glad we can agree on something. Actually, in the beginning, you had been very categorical on the impossibility of kneeling for prayer in the Romanian army
8. I see you continue criticizing others for shortcomings characteristic for almost all of your own comrades. I will not fall into the trap of lowering myself to this level and reciprocating. You are right about the cuffs - most of us have only one instead of two; we shall sew the 2nd one on, although not all tunics throughout WWII had a 2nd cuff.
The dishes we bought are the best solution we could find for now; they look like new, very polished zinc dishes. Zinc dishes cannot be found and are also unhealthy to use - we do not want to reenact also the disease
|Posted by: mihnea March 17, 2011 06:55 am|
| 1. I will make a article about romanian gas mask and post it on A6D forum, and maybe here. I have only to explain 2 photos that is easy, as I recognize the gas masks but the veterans I cannot contradict as it's going to be my word against theres but I do have a theory about the Md 35 gas masks.
2. It would be nice if ATM would allow more individuality in there uniforms and so would be more accurate, as I see you have funds to spend, in my opinion, on not important accessories. But if they are RSR pants I'm sure they will be cheap. I prefer wool pants, as even in the summer reenactments they don't bother me.
3. That famous photo was colored a long time ago, maybe in WWII to use for propaganda, but it's not a color photo, it's a recolored photo. You accused me in the previous post that I don't post links to photo I post, please support your accusation with some examples, I want to correct my mistakes.
4. Yes, fortunately we only reenact, that "faze" you are talking about, is never portrayed in reenactments so we only theorize how it happened. But the move ATM uses is a regulated one from the communist era, not simply using the gun like a club. And using the gun like a club is very artistic so it's no wonder you see it in many works of art.
5. Happy to now that I have admirers, please use me as an example as much as possible. And also sending me a card on special occasions would be nice.
5a. I'm talking about tailoring details, I'm sure that the wind jacket was used.
5b. Nope, my theory was confirmed by our tailor, but I have observed that they are two pieces, when I have seen you wearing them, see photos (click on them to see them big, I made the photos). The zippers you used seem to be simple black ones, but from the original photos, I seen they were metallic silver, or yellow. I'm busy with work and other stuff so I can't help you with the zipper wright now.
http://img820.imageshack.us/i/p1010002wk.jpg/ http://img560.imageshack.us/i/p1010011skn.jpg/ http://img847.imageshack.us/i/p1010016x.jpg/
6. Please do so, it would be nice, it should not be hard, we reenact fewer periods. And we know about those boots, and about the RSR uniforms.
7. To end this subject, in my opinion, and this opinion is shared by other reenactors that are not in ATM. Kneeling in formation or not, is correct only if the unit takes part in a religious serving presided by a priest and according to Romanian traditions and church regulations at that serving kneeling is necessary. But if at a simple commemoration moment (were a priest is not present) the reenactors kneel in formation, this is not correct , not even if the officer is reciting a prayer that is repeated by the troop (as if on the front line, officers had noting to do but remember to recite priers together with there soldiers). These things are valid for all the historical eras.
8. We do not use salad boles for WWI canteens, and once again I know that we use unmodified RSR uniforms, but we do not pretend that they are modified and correct.
@21 inf: Trying to make myself clear for other reenactors, they won't learn anything. And yes it takes me ages to write these posts (2 hours +).
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 19, 2011 06:07 pm|
| 1. I thank you in advance for the article you will write on gas masks. Afterwards I shall post some information of my own. I greet your wise ruling on veterans – using wisely the information they provide is a necessity
2. the average ATM equipment is above average anyway. We all strive hard to improve; you individually, we as a group
3. I just disagree with you on the artificial coloring of the photo. Nobody understands why you keep insisting on this
4.want to see positive proof, see the photo of an official demonstration in July 1938:
5. we always send you cards for Christmas and Easter and we have invited you and your group to all our events (that’s us) – pity you never answer (that’s you)
5a. the mountain troops’ wind jacket was made in many versions. We have chosen the most successful, the model that has remained in use of the Romanian army, with very little changes, till the nineties – as you have already written on another forum; again, you choose to contradict just because ATM has made a choice that was confirmed by veterans – also photos are available and I shall post them shortly
5b. you are right; in the first photo it is accidentally visible that the paratrooper’s jumpsuit is made of two pieces – the rest is sheer evilness. I still will refrain from taking revenge by posting really compromising photos of your group
6. it is good you know about some of your group’s shortcomings; this is the first step towards improvement. Those you mentioned are not the only ones; try harder. I will not criticize your group in public, because I feel that whoever does that displays profoundly bad taste
7. some of the photos show no priest in presence of the kneeling soldiers – of course, the photographer might have missed the priest
8. we do learn a lot, but we rely mainly on documents, pictures and veteran’s accounts. We do not use bowles as canteens (we have canteens) – we use dishes as dishes; they have the same shape and dimensions as the original ones. It’s just that they are in stainless steel instead of zinc. We do admit our imperfections (see all my replies); I appreciate your gesture of admitting that your group’s equipment is not altogether correct. Let us all improve. If you have any questions about the ATM equipment, try asking first; this would leave the impression that you are objective and genuinely interested in new information.
|Posted by: 21 inf March 19, 2011 08:06 pm|
| Mihnea, aviatorul2000 seems to be a very documented and well intended guy. He dont want to criticise your group in public, they just criticise your group in public on their forum, posting personal emails, which are not private in their conception, since they were sent by the sender to the destinatary.
Last year they took a photo of me and one guy from us in 1848 uniforms, they said they want to have a photo together with us and in less than few weeks they post that photo on their forum saying that we didnt knew how to wear our breadsacks, because i had my b.s under the eppaulete and the other guy didnt!!! Can you imagine, dear Mihnea, what a great mistake we did!!! How less were we documented and how foolish we weared our b.s!!!! This is not criticism at all, we are just a bunch of idiots who need guidance from someone who knows better how to do reenactment. You'll see aviatorul2000 will agree me, as he is a superior form of life.
Also, the bayonet fight that they reenact is extremelly well documented with paintings made by painters who for sure participated to battle and that painters kindly asked the combatants to freeze in some positions, seconds before stabbing their enemies, just to allow the painter to do his job and leave a great source of informations for reenactors from XXIst century. Also, a statue is also a great source of info for reenactment, how could we be so idiots that we passed in front of it hundred of times and we never figured out that we have a spectacular source of info just under our noses? I should thank to aviatorul2000 boss that he revealed a such precious source of info they use (why the boss of aviatorul2000 answered and not himself, cos aviatorul2000 spoke here, and why to answer on another forum, is a "mistery" to be researched by next generations).
Mihnea, I suggest that we two to go back in our caves or under the rocks we live, blow our noses and trying to live the next day with the crushing sentiment that aviatorul2000 (and his boss from the other forum) had right again, as they had from the begining, many many years ago, but we were so handicapate and unable to understand him.
(Now, seriously, this is a waste of time and lack of respect for the other members of this highly respectable forum. I will not continue this discussion and I kindly ask the admins to close this topic as this discussion is the continuation of an very old dispute which is not fair to be continued here. Full stop.)
|Posted by: mihnea March 19, 2011 08:46 pm|
| 1. I'm preparing a answer.
2. Some times (and many times for the romanian army) less equipment is better than more equipment.
3. Nobody, you mean yourself? Only you and me take part in this discussion. Or maybe ATM organizes a "web meting" to create an answer my posts. I'm jocking. What about your accusation, on this I'm going to insist.
4. I think that you understand, they are obviously portering a combat and the soldier on the left is the enemy that uses this move, the one defending is the romanian and is displaying how to correctly execute "In sus parati" move. You use this move for all eras not just the inter war era so I'm waiting fore more proof, maybe some scans from the manuals you proudly display, or they don't contain this move? Also the veteran statements only work for WWII what about the other periods?
5. The last email I received from you was on 21 november 2008. Obviously your personal email address is not "firstname.lastname@example.org", I was hoping for something more personal, I'm awaiting something nice for easter.
5a. The wind jackets from the communist era are very different from the ones I have see be used by ATM, but this is just a personal opinion, based on communist regulations and a wind jacket from that era. Can't wait for the pictures.
5b. I was honest, what have I said, for you to consider me evil? I'm referring to original photos and the photos of the reproductions you use. (if you want I can post photos here if you want) Please do post something with A6D, because the readers of this topic are going to think that my reenactment group is perfect... But please don't post a picture from Don Tour 2010, with the boots and the rsr uniforms we already know about those.
6. Why not in public? Is it a shame to be wrong? I admit I'm not perfect and your criticism will not offend me as this is just a passion I do for fun, in my spare time, it's not a job and I have nothing to loose if I'm not perfect. This opinion is also shared buy the colleges from my reenactment group, but I can't speak for them. And from past experience sending personal e-mails to certain ATM members has not ended nice, as there is the risk of these emails to appear in public, or these messages to be circulated among ATM members and added to the ATM archive. This happened to me once, I have send a message to a few members from ATM and then my message was send by the president of ATM, who was not among the recipients, back to me as an attachment to another email that was also sent to other reenactors in Romania, my email contained nothing offensive or insulting to anybody. But it was a private message and it would have been nice that it remained that way, if I would have been asked if it's ok to send my message like that I would have had noting against it.
7. Exactly, from 9 known pictures of soldiers kneeling in 8 a priest is certainly present (visible or it's presence can be deducted: altar present, precise time and location of the photo, civilians attending or the priest is visible in other photos from the same event) in nr 9 the photo is so bad quality we don't even know for sure if the soldiers are romanian. Unfortunately photos stop time for a instant and have narrow field of view.
8. Oops I have to admit I have made a mistake, english is not my first language, and I have mistaken canteens with mess kits. All along I was referring to your use of salad bowls as WWI mess kits (you seem to call them dishes). But from what I know the main romanin army meals was stew or soup that are generally served in bowls not dishes so the romanian mess kit from 1850-1930's was some type of bowl, before WWII a dish was introduced for the romanain mess kit (a copy of the AH from WWI) but this was abandoned during WWII. Maybe you can post a few pictures of romanian soldiers using these "dishes" you talk about, to be able to compare them to the stainless "dishes" (salad bowls in my opinion) ATM is using. I only ask if I don't know something, and I have to know a mistake to recognize it. I'm not going to bother you with other equipment and uniform details ATM is using like: helmets, buttons, gators, tent halves, feather flock, hats, etc.
|Posted by: mihnea March 19, 2011 08:53 pm|
|Took me ages to wright that post so I didn't see what 21inf posted. But I agree with him we are continuing an old discussion that doesn't belong here or on any other public forum. I will stop posting on this topic now. As the discussion is way off topic.|
|Posted by: aviatorul2000 March 23, 2011 03:14 pm|
| 21inf: indeed we have posted the photo we had made together with the group of 21inf, whose Grenzer uniforms were not very good, but just as a souvenir with friends, without any criticism, see: http://www.traditia-militara.ro/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273522858. One of our comrades had just pointed out on our forum that there were differences between your uniforms and ours and he commented on the advantage of showing the public the whole diversity of uniforms and ways to wear them. The real suggestions for improvement, that went far beyond what you say was wrong with the uniforms, was not made public, but was sent by e-mail to you and your group. I suggest you to stick to the truth as much as you can - it would avoid you public embarrassment.
4. you are not objective on the rifle butt hit issue, since you consider only half of the photo to be correct and useful:http://postimage.org/image/340l1btyc/
6. it is no shame to be wrong, but it is impolite and not constructive to criticize in public. If your real aim is to help someone improve, then you do as e.g. your father did when he told us that only the aviation officers had an emblem on their caps - not the soldiers, or as we did when we wrote the suggestions to you and to 21inf by e-mail.
|Posted by: phill73 January 16, 2012 10:38 am|
|Hello All , Firstly thanks for a great and informative site , I am looking to start reenacting the Romanian armed forces of WW2 and eventually setting up a group in England if there is enough interest , Sorry if this question has already been asked but what/who is the best supplier of uniforms to reenact this period in Europe|
|Posted by: phill73 January 17, 2012 04:25 pm|
|Sorry I have removed the entry on looking to buy a uniform to the bazaar|