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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Reenactment > How to create a reenacting group in Oradea|
|Posted by: Kepi June 17, 2007 05:28 am|
| Concerning the "21 inf" oppinion:
"About the fact that there are no Romanian people reenacting Roman legions, what can I say?
I wanted to start a reenactment group in Oradea, where I live, but unfortunately, I cant find enought people to volunteer for this kind of activity; reasons for people NOT to reenact: they never heard about reenacting; they dont have money for equipment; they dont have time for training; they know nothing about history and/or military; and the list can continue... "
As far as today, I have only 1 or 2 men for reenacting, with military experience and enthusiast enough to do reenactment. But also as far as today, we couldnt do anything to establish a reenactment group in Oradea...."
I think you don’t have to wait for a greater number of enthusiasts when you start a reenactment group. In 2004, when we started our Dorobantzes reenacting association, we were also only 3 people: two officers and a private. We have make our uniforms and because we were to few to reconstruct a military unit, we have participated at the Military Museum Days only as spectators dressed in historical costumes. (see the image story on our site: http://www.6dorobanti.ro/archive.php?id=1&language=ro ).
Then, as other people saw us and liked our impression, they joined us and so the size of group has increased. A few months later, we learned about the WW1 show of Komarom, Hungary, organized by the Military Museum of Budapest. We decided to make WW1 uniforms for the same unit (6th Dorobantzes Regiment), to train us according the WW1 regulations, and to participate as an Entante force. It was a nice experience and we were encouraged by the contact with other groups who faced the same problems as we did, but a few years earlier.
So, finally it’s your decision, belief and perseverance to set up a reenacting group and to find a few friends interested on such project. Of course, you have to decide upon a historical period, a unit and focus on the “story” of that unit and the purpose of your project. The uniform, equipment, weapons, drill, come later. The cost of the uniform & equipment it’s not so high if you’ll acquire progressively, along the time. Don’t forget, you have to tackle this activity as a hobby, for your pleasure and fun, not as a tiresome straining task.
It’s also important if you participate, even as spectator, on several reenacting shows, particularly on the period you are interested in. So you’ll see and meet the reenactors, you could discuss with them, learn how they succeeded to amass their equipment and how they deal with this hobby.
It would be great if you could come, even as a spectator, at our WW1 show of Brad (I hope that it will take place on the 11th of August) and meet us and the Bulgarian/Hungarian reenactors. As you are near the Hungarian border, it’s also easy to you to participate at some Hungarian historical shows and see their performances.
It’s also a good opportunity to join the local events for particular celebrations or commemorations (the city of Oradea Days, the National Day, the Heroes Day, etc.). Local authorities are always interested to give a historical touch to their shows, and they are ready to spend some money for these projects. There is also the branch of the National Military Museum in Oradea. Maybe the museologist there might be interested to cooperate with you for such a historical project. I know him (he’s not very active) and the former director of this museum, Colonel (ret.) Dumitru Mosincat (who still is an enthusiastic military historian), and maybe, next year, your group and our “6 Dorobantzes” association could build a common project on this matter.
We are ready to offer you all the assistance and help to rise your reenacting group.[I][/I][I][I]
|Posted by: 21 inf June 17, 2007 01:28 pm|
| First of all, I would like to thank you for your support offer regarding the reenacting group in Oradea!
We think about 2 posibilities of reenacting:
1. reenacting soldiers from XVII century, for some reasons: the fortress of Oradea was built in that period; weaponry easier to obtain, since we dont intend to use fire arms for that period; the real story of my ancestor, who was nobilitated in 1680, so I have a real coat of arms and nobility rank, wich I am allowed to use (document based); all 3 of us are agree that we can learn to fight with weapons as shields, armors, swords, daggers and so on; we are all interested on infantry weapons of that era.
2. we can also reenact a unit that use to have firearms, but we didnt established what period is interesting for all of us. Here comes a little problem that you can help us, regarding the posibility to obtain and use firearms with blind ammo. We all have some kind of "weapons" authorised by police on our names (compressed-air guns), but we know nothing about the issue that I mentioned above. Same lack of info about how to obtain legaly blind ammo for shows.
Perhaps you can help us with some sugestions about a certain period and a unit from our area to reenact (posible conected to other reenacting units from Romania, in order to participate together to some shows) ?
About your participation at Komarom, I read about you in Magazin Istoric ! Congratulations!
We want to go to Brad, I hope that the show it will be on 11th of August for at least several reasons: I anounced about 20 people about the show, so they want to go there as spectators (I dont want to look like a "parrot" ); my ancestors are from Brad area; I'll be abroad from 15th of August and I really cant wait to see your reenactment.
PS: how about to begin only with me and one of my friends as reenactors, joining at first to another group??
|Posted by: mihnea June 17, 2007 01:58 pm|
Ammo can't be blind only the shooter might be ; ammo can be: live ammo (with bullets) or blank ammo (a lot of noise but no killing).
|Posted by: Dénes June 17, 2007 02:04 pm|
Can you tell us more about your ancestor?
|Posted by: 21 inf June 17, 2007 03:18 pm|
Sorry, I was translating from romanian "gloante oarbe"
You are right, it is corect to say blank ammo instead of blind ammo.
|Posted by: 21 inf June 17, 2007 03:24 pm|
With your permission, I'm opening a different subject about my ancestor, giving the fact that it is off-topic to speak about him on this section of the forum.
The story can be found at the following link:
|Posted by: Dénes June 17, 2007 06:17 pm|
| O.K., very nice and interesting.
|Posted by: Kepi June 18, 2007 08:04 am|
Your both ideas concerning the reenacting are interesting.
I only want to note that it’s difficult to create a typical Romanian warriors unit of XVII-th century, particularly on that area of today Romania. From the end of XVI-th century, armies were mainly composed of companies of mercenaries and professional soldiers that “sold” their services & skills to the princes and kings who intended to raise a military force. Typical for that period and Central European region were the Hungarian/Transylvanian and Polish armies. The polish army during that “golden age” was composed of a mixture of western (“german”) military units: dragoons, trabants, musketeers, and eastern military units: hussars, seymens, hayduks, janissaries, tartars, kosaks. These warriors were dressed in their traditional/national costumes, brought their own weapons and used traditional tactics.
It’s difficult to speak about a Romanian military tradition and fashion except the Wallachian Dorobantzes (Trabanten) and Calarashi (horsemen) in mid. XVII-th century. Unfortunately, there is no information and serious studies concerning the dress, tactics, weapons of these units, but they should fallow the fashion of the East/Central European costume.
You said that your ancestor was awarded with a nobility rank for his military service. It’s difficult to say if he belonged to a Romanian/Wallachian unit fighting for the Prince of Transylvania or he joined other local or foreign unit.
There are a few medieval reenactment groups in Hungary that remembrer the Hungarian/Central European style of warfare (see their portal: http://katonaihagyomany.lap.hu/ ). There are also some medieval reenacting groups in Romania: The Knights of Medias, of Sibiu, of Sighisoara, etc. that participate at the medieval festivals such as the famous event of Sighisoara. I’m not very much satisfied by the quality of their performance because they simply copied the western style of chivalry that was not specific for the eastern part of Europe, not even for the german area of Transylvania . In this region was a mixture of western and eastern styles of armours, weapons and tactics.
Another solution is to select a Romanian military unit of the modern times, that was located in Oradea since 1918. After WW1 in Oradea was set up the 17th Infantry Division , with the 17th Infantry Brigade - Oradea ( 85th and 86th infantry regiments) and the 47th Infantry Brigade – Cluj (83rd and 98th infantry regiments). After the Arbitration/Dictate of Vienna, of August 1940, some Romanian units, such as the 17th Infantry Division , were disbanded.
After WW2, in Oradea was located the 18th Infantry Division (90th, 91st and 92nd infantry regiments). This great unit was numbered the 35th, and in 1951was relocated in Banat, to face the menace of Tito’s Yugoslavia.
In 1949, from the 2nd Infantry Division (Craiova) was set up the 11th Infantry Division (Oradea), composed of the 3rd, 14th and 36th infantry regiments. In 1951 the 11th Infantry Division was numbered the 95th Infantry Division (composed of 285th, 199th and 104th infantry regiments). In 1959 the division regains its old number, the 18th, and the 285th infantry became the 21st Infantry Mechanized Regiment. In 1994 this regiment was transformed in the 21st Infantry Battalion “General Traian Mosoiu”.
In 1959, the 21st Infantry Regiment/Battalion took the traditions of the 3rd Dorobantzes Regiment “Olt”, that was set up on 1st January 1877, and have participated at all the major campaigns of the Romanian army.
It was not a good idea to give the number 21st to the infantry regiment of Oradea and adopt the traditions of the 3rd Dorobantzes “Olt” , because the 21st infantry had its own tradition in the Romanian army and was one of the oldest units (set up in 1830 as the first infantry regiment in Moldavia, became the 4th line infantry in 1859 and the 21st infantry in 1890). Unfortunately nobody cared about traditions in 1959.
Personally I would prefer a local (Oradea) or Transylvanian unit, maybe an Austrian regiment with a major Romanian presence. For example the 50th KuK Infantry Regiment of Alba Iulia, raised in 1850, with 71 % Romanian manpower in 1914, bore the traditions of the 2nd Wallachian Frontier Regiment of Nasaud (set up in 1764). In 1919, in Alba Iulia was set up the 91st Infantry Regiment “King Ferdinand”, that was supposed to continue the great military traditions of the 50th KuK regt.
Finally it’s up to you to decide what is the best unit to reenact, in order to establish the “story” of your group, make the right uniforms, etc.
Concerning the fire weapons, this is another story. We still use the rifles borrowed from the military museum, as we co-operate with them for the shows. Some of us are fire weapons collectors, and participate at the shows with their own arms, but it’s difficult to amass a great quantity of rifles of the same type. As I told you, it might be a possibility to cooperate with the military museum of Oradea for some shows, and borrow their weapons for those events. As far as I know, Colonel Mosincat used some old weapons and uniforms of the museum during the historical events.
|Posted by: Dénes June 18, 2007 11:53 am|
In my opinion that would not be so easy to accurately follow. For example, the command language of that k.u.k. unit was German. How many of the would-be re-enactors is proficient enough in German?
Also, they carried flags that would not be easily "swallowed" by the members and the general public, i.e. the flag of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy.
I think it would be much easier to reenact a post-1919 unit, like the one Kepi suggested:
"In 1919, in Alba Iulia was set up the 91st Infantry Regiment “King Ferdinand”, that was supposed to continue the great military traditions of the 50th KuK regt."
Just my two-cent contribution to this interesting topic.
|Posted by: 21 inf June 18, 2007 04:45 pm|
| Hello Kepi and Denes!
Thank you both for your good suggestions!
I was talking yesterday with one of nephews about the reenacting group.
Here are our ideas, please free to comment them, you are more experienced in reenactment.
1 st idea - in conection with Zalau roman reenacting. We can reenact one of Dacian cohorts who was raised by romans. Romans allowed native auxiliary cohorts to use their native flags, uniforms and weaponry. It should be easy to reenact with great accuracy, my nephew being archaeologist and being pasionate of roman era.
As far as I know (from my memory) it was raised Cohors I Dacorum, garisoned at today Rasnov and Cohors II Dacorum garisoned somewhere in Britania.
2nd idea - in conection with the knights from Sighisoara, towards I having the same impresion like you, that they are not historically real for this part of Europe, they are to much "commercial". We can reenact mercenary walachians from XVII century, not a certain unit. This is researchable, we can info about clothes, weapons and tactics of transylvanian walachian mercenaries.
3rd idea - a military unit that was raised even by AH monarchy, cos as far as I know, there was raised units almost entirely from the ranks of some nations from AH monarchy, only the officers being austrians. Is the case of reenacting group from Alba Iulia.
About a foreign language as German, it will be not a problem, we'll learn what we need if necesary. The hungarian guys who reenact roman legionaries used only comands in latin! Admirable, and of course an example of profesionalism that must be aplied in Romania also.
If Kepi can help with some images with transylvanian mercenaries from XVII century, it will be a great plus. Thank you in advance!
|Posted by: Kepi June 19, 2007 05:53 pm|
| I agree your opinons concerning the three kinds of reenactment you would like to create.
I only want to note that it’s not easy to make three different costumes for three different periods. But, of course you may tackle these impressions along the time.
I would try to give you all the information I have (unfortunately not very much on the antique and medieval periods). But this would be possible only after the event of Ploiesti, of the next week-end, because I’m very much involved in this project.
|Posted by: 21 inf June 19, 2007 06:34 pm|
| Thank you.
It was 3 ideas, but of course we'll reenact only one period of time .
I exposed all ideas cos i wanted you to help with the selection of the best idea.
|Posted by: 21 inf June 22, 2007 01:16 pm|
I was today at the Military Museum from Oradea, but even if I went there during program hours (10-16 hours), the doors were closed, and no one was at the museum.
I wanted to contact colonel Mosincat to discuss with him about a posible cooperation for reenactment.
Can you give me his phone number, if you know it, so I can schedule a meeting with him? (please PM if you can help me; thank you).
|Posted by: Kepi October 16, 2007 06:52 pm|
| @ 21 inf.
Concerning your intention to set up a reenactment group in Oradea, I think the best idea is to find a Romanian unit that fought in both world wars. So, you will have the opportunity to participate, as a historical unit, at the commemorative shows that are frequently organized in your city ( “Oradea Days” – 12th of October, “The Romanian Armed Forces Day” – 25th of October, “The National Day” – 1st of December ).
Unfortunately, as I told you in my first message of this topic, the infantry units located in Oradea, set up in 1919, were mostly disbanded in 1940, when the Northern Transylvania was annexed by Hungary, and didn’t fought in WW2.
I think you should choose one of the first Transylvanian units set up at the beginning of 1919. Among these units was the 91st Infantry Regiment (20th Infantry Division) of Alba Iulia, that was mobilized in May 1919. It was composed of ex –AH soldiers, of the 50th KuK Infantry Regiment, garrisoned in Alba Iulia., with a great composition of Romanian ethnic soldiers. The 50th KuK Infantry Regiment, set up in 1850, took the traditions of the 2nd Wallachian Grenz Infantry Regiment of Nasaud, that goes back to 1764.
In 1922, when King Ferdinand I visited this regiment during the coronation ceremonies as King of the Great Romania, the 91st Infantry Regiment was named “Ferdinand I”. In his speech, Prince Carol (the future King Carol II) make a connection between the traditions of the Romanian 91st Infantry and the KuK 50th Infantry regiments.
The 91st Infantry was not disbanded in August-September 1940 and fought in WW2.
Concerning the Romanian ex-AH soldiers, POWs in Russia, who volunteered for the Romanian army in WW1, they first fought in different Romanian infantry units in summer 1917. In October 1917, was set up the Transylvanian Volunteers Corps, composed of the 1st “Turda” and the 2nd “Alba Iulia” regiments. In January 1918 was created the 3rd “Avram Iancu” Regiment. These units were disbanded after the peace treaty of Buftea, in April 1918, but recreated in February 1919, to fight against Hungarian troops. There is no evidence of any direct connection between the 2nd Volunteers Regiment “Alba Iulia” and the 91st Infantry Regiment of Alba Iulia, but I think you could combine these two units to get Romanian WW1 and WW2 impressions.
If necessary, you could also reenact Romanian ethnic soldiers of the AH army before 1917 ( 50th KuK Infantry and 2nd Grenz Infantry).
|Posted by: 21 inf October 17, 2007 02:31 am|
| Thanks, Kepi for the infos!
What about the conection between Volunteer Corp Horia (Volunteer Corp Beius in other sources) , who received its banner on 2nd March 1919 at Tebea, and the 86th Inf Reg from Oradea?
I read the the 86 was made on the nucleus of Volunteer Corp Horia. Was also 86 IR disbanded in 1940?
|Posted by: Kepi October 22, 2007 11:20 am|
| As far as I know, the Infantry Regiment of Beius, was composed of ex-members of the Romanian National Guards of Transylvania.
There was also a Romanian Volunteers Regiment “Horea”, but this was the first unit of the Romanian Legion in Italy. Other units were: 2nd Regiment “Closca”, 3rd Regiment “Crisan” and 4th Regiment “Avam Iancu” (this last unit was never raised). The Italian Volunteers units, composed of ethnic Romanian POWs, dressed in Italian WW1 uniforms, with Romanian markings, came in Transylvania at the beginning of 1919, and joined the Transylvanian Volunteers Corps of Moldavia (1st Regiment “Turda”, 2nd Regiment “Alba Iulia” and 3rd Regiment “Avram Iancu”).
Vasile Dudas’s book “Voluntarii Marii Uniri”, said that in spring 1919 the 1st Romanian Volunteers Regiment “Horea” was transformed into the 97th Infantry Regiment of Odorhei, but I think this is a wrong information because the 97th was never raised. Other two regiments were simply disbanded in 1920.
Concerning your question, I don’t know if there was any connection between Romanian Volunteers Regiment “Horea”, the Infantry Regiment of Beius and the 86th Infantry Regiment. Anyway, the 86th IR was transformed in 1939 into the 2nd Fortifications Regiment, and was disbanded in 1940.
I think you have to choose a Romanian Transylvanian unit, located in western Transylvania, to commemorate the both world wars. For WW1, I think the best option would be a Transylvanian volunteers unit raised in Russia (1st Regiment “Turda”, 2nd Regiment “Alba Iulia” or 3rd Regiment “Avram Iancu”) that also fought on Moldavian Front in 1917, then in the war with Hungary in 1919. For WW2, it could be the 85th Infantry Regiment, that was garrisoned in Oradea until 1940, then was transferred to the 1st Infantry Division, in Banat. The 85th Infantry fought on the Eastern Front, from 1941 till August 1944. In October 1944, this unit was disbanded.
I think is best if you'll start with a WW1 impression, because most ceremonials commemorate the 1918 period. It’s good to start with presentation and honour guard duties on different commemorative shows in Oradea, to come to the fore of the public and attract new recruits. Dragos Diaconu could help you with the uniform: capela, tunic, trousers, puttees, bread-bag, waist belt and cartridge pouches. Then, it would be fine if you could acquire a Mauser or Czech VZ-24 bayonet from antique shops or flea market, which fit with the rifles available in the museum.
Maybe next year your reenactment squad will join us for different historical shows.
|Posted by: 21 inf October 22, 2007 04:17 pm|
| Thank you, Kepi, for the infos!!!
We are 4 men gathered for reenactment, and I decided, based on informations provided by you, to reenact 3rd Regiment "Avram Iancu".
I'm going to Bucharest tomorow and I'll stay until Friday.
I'm PM to you my phone number, in order to put me in contact with Dragos Diaconu to take my numbers for the uniform
DIN TARA MOTILOR EU AM VENIT!
|Posted by: 21 inf November 24, 2007 03:38 pm|
| Thanks to Kepi (who adviced me) and Dragos D (who made the uniform),
the first uniform is ready and arrived at Oradea.
We'll reenact 3rd Regiment Avram Iancu from romanian army in ww1.
The uniform in the image is a sergeant, romanian volunteer from Transylvania who joined romanian army in summer 1917, 3rdReg Avram Iancu.
Hope we'll see soon!
|Posted by: Kepi November 24, 2007 05:20 pm|
| Congratulation “21 inf”! Your Romanian WW1 uniform fits very well.
Now you could participate at 1st of December ceremonies in Oradea as a Transylvanian volunteer of 1918. I hope that all the members of your group will be fully equipped and drilled in the near future and you’ll join us for the next historical shows.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier November 24, 2007 06:01 pm|
| Congratulations 21inf ! It's always an exciting moment to receive your first reenacting uniform.
P.S: What's the meaning of the green bands on the puttees ?
|Posted by: Kepi November 25, 2007 08:12 am|
They simply are the upper laces that fit the puttes bellow the knees. They could be made in any available material (preferably in the colour of the puttes) but is recommended to be not visible.
|Posted by: 21 inf November 25, 2007 05:44 pm|
| I'm still learning how to put the putees on my feets
That's why one is upper than the other
|Posted by: mihnea November 25, 2007 08:10 pm|
| The correct WWI belt was black as was all the leather equipment except the boots and captured equipment.
You can disassemble the belt and paint the interior, the rough side, black then reassemble the belt with the black rough side out. Now it will look more authentic than the original brown pebbled exterior.
And don't worrry the putees look very good.
|Posted by: Kepi November 26, 2007 06:30 am|
| To learn how to wrap the puttees please see the information on this site...
You may note that Romanian army puttees were not rectangular but they were cut a little bit curved. So you must put the puttees with the convex part up wards, in order to fit closely on the calf of the leg.
An infantryman could have the most unpleasant feeling when his puttees unwrap during a march or in front line, because of a bad putting.
|Posted by: 21 inf November 26, 2007 12:22 pm|
|Many thanks, Kepi!|
|Posted by: 21 inf December 01, 2007 10:23 am|
| For the first time, I was dressed in my uniform in public, during the celebration of 1st of December in Oradea.
The reaction of the public was great, they apreciated very much the look of the uniform and the initiative.
Large number of retired oficers offered their suport in the future for our reenactment group, after they see today the uniform in public.
Thanks again to Kepi and the guys from R6DG who suported me in diferent ways.
|Posted by: Dénes December 01, 2007 11:04 am|
| Can we see some pictures?
|Posted by: 21 inf December 01, 2007 11:34 am|
| Of course! One can see what a number of televisions filmed at the event, the images will be probably presented to the public this evening.
As about a picture, one of the uniform it is posted above on this tpoic.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:07 am|
| Gentlemen, I'm very glad to present the members of 3rd "Avram Iancu" Infantry Regiment, the reenactment group from Oradea.
I'd like to express our gratitude to all those enthusiastic gentlemen who helped us to reach this point of having the uniforms and training oportunities. Being so many people involved in our suport, I'll mention no name, being afraid of not to hurt one by omitting someone. For all those who help and suported us, a warm "Thank you!"
So, here we are:
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:23 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:29 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:31 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:32 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 11:35 am|
The fifth member could not attend the training session, unfortunatelly
So, here we are, only partially trained by WW1 military regulations and having just a part of the equipement, so dont judge us too hard
|Posted by: C-2 April 12, 2008 12:03 pm|
|Was beard alowed in that time?|
|Posted by: mihnea April 12, 2008 03:45 pm|
|And... were are the soldiers???|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 12, 2008 03:53 pm|
|Eh, we all kept our grades from the army|
|Posted by: Kepi April 12, 2008 04:30 pm|
| Congratulations “21 inf”.
This group belongs to the new created Club of traditions “Menumorut”. The pictures were taken during a training session at the Military Museum of Oradea. They are preparing for the commemorative event of Beius and Oradea that will be held next week-end, on 19th-20th of April 2008. A group of 7 reenactors of the 6th Dorobantzes Regiment “Mihai Viteazul” and The Mountain Regiment, from Bucharest, will join them for this event.
Our colleagues from Oradea look great except some minor faults: the absence of puttees, and waist-belts or the unusual long hair of one of the reenactors… that could be corrected until the event.
We do hope to see the members of this Club in Bucharest, during the “Military Museum Days” of 10th-11th of May 2008.
|Posted by: 21 inf October 12, 2008 11:56 am|
|Now we have from about 2 months a new active member who joined us with rank of private.|