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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Awards & Badges > Virtutea Aeronautica|
|Posted by: Carol I November 08, 2003 01:57 am|
| What do you know about this variation of the officer's badge of this rare order? The central shield with monogram is white instead of blue.
Is it real or just a fake?
|Posted by: Dénes November 08, 2003 02:46 am|
| The inside shield was indeed white (at least that's how it appears on b/w photos).
This particular order appears to be 'Virtutea Aeronautica', Knight Grade, with Swords.
However, the pristine look is suspicious to me.
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 08, 2003 03:15 am|
| You can compare Carol I's image with this one, taken from Victor's and C-2's site arr.go.ro :
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 08, 2003 03:25 am|
| In the book DECORATII ROMANESTI DE RAZBOI 1860-1947, I don't see any pic with an Aeronautical Virtue having the central shield of white colour...
It could be a variety, but the swords are a little bit dubious (not so sharp, and too shiny). And I don't think that there's any marking on it... :roll:
|Posted by: Carol I November 08, 2003 10:51 am|
| Thank you for your replies.
This is indeed an officer's badge with swords (the knight grade did not have the laurel reef between the arms of the cross). There are many things that speak against its authenticity, but unfortunately they are not absolute truths.
First the colour of the central shield is white, while in the 1993 book by Safta, Jipa, Velter and Marinescu it is described as being blue. Indeed, all the photos they have on plates 31 and 32 (pp. 82-83) show badges with an inner blue shield.
Second, the badge I showed in my original message has equal arms. The book quoted above states that the officer and knight grades had the vertical arm of the cross of 44 mm, while the horizontal arm had only 40 mm. Unfortunately this is in contrast to the images they show in plates 31 and 32 where the arms are equal for all the crosses.
The badge I showed has hilts with a horizontal pattern (like that of the second badge in the photo from C. H. Pankey’s collection posted by Geto-Dacul), while most of the war badges have a tilted pattern (like that in the first and third badge in the same photo).
The swords of the badge do not look very sharp indeed, but the same can be said about the bottom right one on plate 32 in the book by Safta et al and by the second badge in the photo mentioned above. It is surprising that both the bottom right badge in the book and the badge I showed have the upper left tip of the sword sharp while the upper right one is somewhat rounded.
The pristine appearance might also be suspicious but on the other hand the badge may have been cleaned.
Do you know if there were any markings or hallmarks on the badges of the Aeronautical Virtue Order? In the article from http://www.arr.go.ro Charles H. Pankey states that he hasn’t seen any. Do you know how I may contact him?
Do you have any badges in your collections that I can compare with this badge? Would it be possible to send me images with good resolution? Thank you very much in advance.
|Posted by: Dénes November 08, 2003 03:37 pm|
| First, let me state that I am a novice in the field of decorations, badges, medals, etc. I have only a few such original items in my personal collection. But I am quite interested in learning about the topic.
I used the book of David Littlejohn, Foreign Legions of the Third Reich, vol. 4, as reference. Unfortunately, there are only b/w photos of various medals in the book. That's why I mentioned in my reply that the colour of the central shield is only a guess, based on b/w photos.
|Posted by: Dénes November 08, 2003 03:39 pm|
| First, let me state that I am a novice in the field of decorations, badges, medals, etc. I have only a few such original items in my personal collection. But I am quite interested in learning about the topic.
I used the book of David Littlejohn, Foreign Legions of the Third Reich, vol. 4, as reference. Unfortunately, there are only b/w photos of various medals in the book. That's why I mentioned in my reply that the colour of the central shield is only a guess, based on b/w photos. Also, the name of the medal was given as Knight Grade in the aforementioned book.
|Posted by: Carol I November 08, 2003 09:43 pm|
| Thank you very much for your reply. I am also far from being an expert in orders and this is why I have asked for your help in identifying this badge. My only experience in this order comes from the book I mentioned and from the very few images seen on the net (it may seem surprising, but this far I did not see any other real-life badge of this order). Therefore I am trying to put together the very scarce information I can get hold of in the attempt to identify the real value of this item.
The fact is that the same dealer that is now offering this badge has also offered an identical one about a year ago (image below). I have therefore started to wonder if this is a true variety or if I should suspect some foul play. If the white shield variety is (quite) common, some of you might also have it in your collections or at least you saw it in some museum(s). If the variety is not common, what would the chances be that the same dealer is offering two identical badges in such a short time interval?
Did I understand right that you have several Aeronautical Virtue badges in your collection? I would be most interested in obtaining their images if possible.
According to the sources I have, the Order of Aeronautical Virtue comes in four classes that are differentiated in size, shape and enamel. Thus, the Gold Cross is a yellow metal cross without enamel (the badges were supposed to be made in gilt silver, but as far as I know this was not put into practice; thus I may venture to say that the badges were made in bronze). The Knight’s badge has the same size and shape as the Gold Cross, but it is enamelled in blue (the cross and the shield with the monogram) and white (the larger central shield). The Officer’s badge has the same size and enamel as the Knight’s badge, with an added green enamelled laurel reef between the arms of the cross. Finally the Commander’s cross has the same shape and enamel as the Officer’s badge, but it is somewhat larger. All these classes received crossed swords between the arms of the cross during wartime.
This being said, I could think of only one reason why the foreign sources might consider the Officer’s cross as a Knight’s war badge. Some countries had purely military orders that were awarded with crossed swords between the arms of the cross even in peacetime. In consequence, the badges awarded in wartime received a laurel reef (usually called “war decoration”) similar to that in the Officer’s and Commander’s badges of the Aeronautical Virtue order. The fact that this Romanian order was quite different from the other Romanian orders both in organisation and in statute probably increased the confusion.
|Posted by: Carol I November 09, 2003 12:50 pm|
| I have a new hypothesis regarding the white shield variety of the Aeronautical Virtue order.
Could it be possible that this particular variety was awarded only to Germans?
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 09, 2003 08:44 pm|
| Carol I wrote :
The Aeronautical Virtue order is a kind of Michael the Brave order, but for aviators. I just looked in the German book on Romanian awards PHALERISTIC RUMANIEN and i didn't saw any pictures with a white central shield version of this award (the pics in the German book are black and white). And if that special "variation" was to be awarded "to Germans only", than be sure that it would have been proudely stated in the German reference... But why only to Germans? Why not to Russians too, or other strangers...?
Again, I'm looking to your two pics and I found the award to shiny, to "newly gilded"... When you look closer to it, you begin to see the imperfections ; the "1930" is pretty poorly executed, the gold tone is to artificial, synthetic...
That's my opinion...
|Posted by: Victor November 09, 2003 09:15 pm|
| According to the Royal Decree of 1930, the smaller central shield (the one on the eagle's chest) should be blue, not white.
Btw, the Aeronautical Virtue was awarded with swords also during peacetime, in the inter-war period.
|Posted by: Carol I November 09, 2003 11:44 pm|
| Thank you for your replies.
I would not agree entirely with this statement. According to F. Marinescu, one very strong reason (if not the main one) to establish the Aeronautical Virtue order was to reward the pilots who “smuggled” Carol II in Romania on 30 June 1930. The official establishing of the order only one month after this event, on 31 July 1930, strongly supports his hypothesis (it seems that the drafting of the statute has been a main priority for Carol II in the first month of his reign). Thus it does not seem that the order was intended as an aviation replacement for Michael the Brave. I wonder what would have happened if Carol II remained on the throne? There were speculations that he intended to replace the traditional decorations with his own. However, even during the war more pilots received the Aeronautical Virtue order than Michael the Brave. My impression is that Aeronautical Virtue was more of a long service order, while Michael the Brave was a pure bravery order that allowed an easy comparison with other branches of the armed forces (this is why I do not quite like the contemporary idea of creating different decorations for Army, Navy and Air Forces).
I considered that these badges may have been awarded to Germans only because they are a 1938 model with Carol II’s monogram. This badge has been produced only between 1938 and 1941 and this model was the most likely to be awarded in the first days of the war. I assumed that in those days the Germans may have been the first foreigners to receive it, but of course other Axis nationalities are not excluded. As for the Russians or other Allies it is most likely that they received the 1941 model of the order with Mihai’s monogram. Anyhow, the only reason for advancing the “Germans only” hypothesis was Dénes’ message saying that he has seen photos of pilots wearing badges with white centres. I have assumed that those pilots were Germans, even though he did not mention it explicitly.
This sounds very interesting. Could you please give me details? According to the information I have, the Aeronautical Virtue order received swords only in 1938 together with the other Romanian orders. Do you have information of anyone who received a war badge between 1938 and 1941?
However, I understand that you incline to consider the white shield badge as fakes. Rather good, but still fakes. And the reasons that led you to this decision are the details in manufacturing, rather than other details as the “producers” showed very good knowledge about the originals. The funny thing is that a numismatics expert (though not an order expert) form the National History Museum of Romania considered them as originals even when I pointed out the white shield.
What do you say then about the badges that have the central shield in a darker shade of blue than the cross? I have seen photos of several such badges, one of them being the second badge from the left in the image posted by Geto-Dacul.
Returning now to the real badges, Charles H. Pankey states that there were two producers for this order: Rudolf Souval of Vienna and Fa. Karnet of Prague. I wonder if it is possible to distinguish between the badges coming from these two makers. Did one of them produce the badges with a rounded top of 3 and the other the badges with a straight top of 3? Did one produce the badges with the tilted pattern on the hilts and the other those with a horizontal pattern? Is there any chance that any of these characteristics or both indicate(s) fakes? Was there a third producer in Germany as other Romanian orders were produced by German manufacturers?
Also regarding the various models, do you know if there are any peace badges with Mihai’s monogram?
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 10, 2003 02:11 am|
| Carol I wrote :
"Physically", the award resembles very much to the Michael the Brave order.
Are you sure that it was really produced until 1941 (the Carol type)? Considering that Carol became widely un-popular by the fall of 1940, I don't think that the awards with his cypher were very popular, and also among Germans.
|Posted by: Carol I November 10, 2003 03:30 pm|
Actually I am quite interested in finding the answer to this question. From the information available, I assume that the production of the war versions for all the Romanian orders started in the end of 1938 or most probably in the beginning of 1939 and continued until at least 6 September 1940. It is therefore reasonable to assume further that war badges of the Aeronautical Virtue order were produced in this period and that they had Carol II’s monogram (it would be indeed interesting to find out how many have been produced). Then, after 30 June 1941 when the restructuring of the wartime system of decorations took place, the badges had Mihai’s monogram. The question now is what has happened between these two dates.
Did the Romanian government manage to send an order to stop the production of this type of badges or it had other things to deal with (e.g. consolidating the power and negotiating its sharing/distribution, the fascist rebellion etc.)? I therefore guess that the production continued in 1941 from lack of further orders.
When the decision to stop the production of the old badges was taken, what has happened with the badges that were already produced? Did the government have both the time and the money to melt the old badges and produce new ones only because of Carol II’s monogram? Obviously, the badges without Carol II’s monogram (the Order of the Star and the Order of the Crown) were used without problems. The question is what has happened with the items with the old monogram. There are some boxes for the war badges of the Order of the Star and the Order of the Crown that have Carol’s monogram on the lid. If they are not fakes, this means that they were not destroyed and that they were probably awarded in the first days of the war as such.
On the other hand, to my knowledge no Michael the Brave order model 1938 with swords was awarded. Should we assume that the same is true for the Aeronautical Virtue order? Are then all except very few of the war badges with Carol II’s monogram fakes? The difference in the shade of the inner shield and the cross and also the pattern on the hilts suggests this, but is it really so?
A further question about the various models is if there are any peace time badges of the Aeronautical Virtue order with Mihai’s monogram.
|Posted by: Victor November 10, 2003 03:48 pm|
| The Virtutea Aeronautica Order was, at its creation, second in importance after the Mihai Viteazul Order. It was not made to replace it, just to add a special award for the aviators (not only for officers, like the MV Order). Any aviator, who received the MV Order, also received automatically the VA Order Knight class. In 1938, the order was officially downgraded to a modest position no. 9.
The Germans were not the first foreign citizens who received the award with swords. There were several French officers who did (their awards were for WWI, just like some Romanian WWI veterans were awarded the wartime version during the inter-war period).
The swords were not added in 1938, but from the initial decree.
Between September 1940 and June 1941, no peacetime VA Orders were awarded. I do not know however if after the end of the war, some of them were issued until 1948.
PS: You can find mr. Pakey's e-mail address here: http://www.arr.go/credits.htm
|Posted by: Carol I November 11, 2003 09:04 am|
Thank you for your reply. I think that it supports my opinion regarding the real importance of the Aeronautical Virtue Order. Actually this order moved a lot among the other Romanian orders. When it was established, it was the fourth order, just above the Order of the Star, but below the Orders of Carol I, Ferdinand I and Michael the Brave. In 1937, following the inclusion of the personal orders of Carol II it became seventh in the hierarchy. 1938 brought indeed its downgrading to the ninth position (after the Order of the Crown), but in 1941 its importance increased again, both by bringing it back to its original position (before the Order of the Star) and by removing the dynastic orders form the list of “war” orders. I guess it then became again the third or the fourth order in the hierarchy (as I do not know the details of the 1941 decree).
This is a very interesting piece of information. Do you have the names of the officers, both Romanian and French, who received the wartime version of the badge before 1938/1941? It would be great if you would also have the numbers of the awarding decrees.
I understand that you have or at least have seen the original Royal Decree. Can I ask you for a copy? I would be most interested in reading it.
Thank you also for the information regarding the peace badges between September 1940 and June 1941. Do you know if the order became a purely military one after 1941 or 1945?
Thank you also for Mr. Pankey’s e-mail address. I will contact him quite soon.
|Posted by: Victor November 11, 2003 04:39 pm|
| As a military order, the Virtutea Aeronautica was second only to the Mihai Viteazul Order and superior to the Steaua Romaniei Order with swords.
The new Law for the organization of the National Orders and Medals was promulgated on 26 November 1937. According to it, the VA Order was still the second military order awarded for actions during combat. The Mihai Viteazul was given for exemplary deeds, while the VA Order was the first in the list for normal deeds.
The Rules for the application of the law from 1938 downgraded it to position no. 9, after the Coroana Romaniei
I do not know if the order became purely military from 1941 onwards.
|Posted by: Carol I November 11, 2003 09:09 pm|
I have just found out that there are some peace badges of the Aeronautical Virtue Order with Mihai's monogram.
|Posted by: mabadesc November 12, 2003 03:41 am|
| Can someone please post the order of importance of Romanian military and/or non-military medals during 1941-1945? Let's say, the top 10?
I know MV is first, but what's second?
|Posted by: Carol I November 12, 2003 07:56 am|
The Romanian national orders between 1941 and 1945 were:
1. The Order of Carol I (it did not have a military division and to my knowledge it has not been awarded during the war, but in theory it could have been awarded to the commander in chief of the Romanian army upon the winning of a significant battle)
2. The Military Order of Michael the Brave
3. The Aeronautical Virtue Order (to my knowledge restored to this position after the overthrow of Carol II)
4. The Order of the Star of Romania (with swords for military awards)
5. The Order of the Crown of Romania (with swords for military awards)
6. Queen Mary’s Cross Order (order reserved for the medical corps or auxiliary personnel)
7. The Order for Cultural Merit (obviously non-military)
8. The Order for Agricultural Merit (obviously non-military; I do not actually know if it was not disbanded after the overthrow of Carol II)
At equal importance with the Order of Carol I has been the Order of Ferdinand I. This order has been officially closed in 1937, but it remained in the hierarchy of national orders.
As Victor said, in 1938 the Aeronautical Virtue Order was ranked after the Order of the Crown of Romania with swords, but according to F. Marinescu it has been restored to the 1930/1937 position in the beginning of the war.
If you would like information about the medals, Decoratii romanesti de razboi: 1860-1947 by I. Safta, R. Jipa, T. Velter and F. Marinescu is the best reference available now. Romania - Decoratii 1859-1991 by S. Catone, N. Serbanescu and D. Bedivan might also be used but it is not as comprehensive as the other.
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 12, 2003 02:26 pm|
| Carol I wrote :
This beautiful green enameled award didn't disapear after the abdication of king Carol II... It continued to exist and was awarded until December 30, 1947 with Michael's royal cipher.
|Posted by: Carol I December 04, 2003 09:06 am|
I have just seen on eBay the 16.12.1941 issue of the French edition of the German propaganda magazine "Der Adler" where there is a photo of some German airmen decorated by Antonescu with the Aeronautical Virtue Order with swords. It can be very clearly seen that at least one of the cases of the awards has Carol II’s monogram. Unfortunately, the photo is too small to see if the monogram is also present on the badges or not. However, this photo indicates that Carol II’s monogram was present in one way or the other on decorations awarded to the Germans in WWII.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 19, 2004 09:10 pm|
|Carol I , your forgot from your list " Serviciul Credincios" , "Virtutea militara" and "Pentru Merit".......|
|Posted by: Carol I November 19, 2004 10:53 pm|
I did not forget about the orders you mentioned, but the fact is that neither the Order for Loyal Service nor the Order for Merit were included in the 1941 list of Romanian war orders. Furthermore, to my knowledge there were no civilian awards either during WWII.
As for the Military Virtue, in 1941 there was no Order for Military Virtue (this order appeared only in 2000). Only the Medal for Military Virtue was awarded during WWII. Hence there was no point including it into the list of Romanian national orders between 1941 and 1945.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 23, 2004 06:27 pm|
|Carol I partially you're right ( about the period) , but the man asked about medals , not just the orders.|
|Posted by: b737 November 23, 2004 07:42 pm|
| Hi Guys!
there is a book, the "Bible" for romanian orders collector,called "Phaleristik Rumänien" written by Dr Klietmann. This book is written in german and englisch.
This book is the best refference literature for romanian orders and medals.Read it and you will be pleased .
|Posted by: Carol I November 23, 2004 07:51 pm|
The list I posted was entitled "The Romanian national orders between 1941 and 1945". Thus it had no intention to include any of the medals of the period (hence neither the Loyal Service, nor the Military Virtue was forgotten).
If we now refer to medals, both the Loyal Service and the Military Virtue were awarded during WWII. But I do not have any knowledge of a "Medal for Merit" during WWII. Do you have a reference to its use during the period?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 23, 2004 08:16 pm|
I already admited that I didn't pay attention to the period requested. The man asked in general a top 10 , not just for orders. To answer to your question it seems this order "with swords"(For Merit) was awarded by the King until 30th June 1941 . Regards.
|Posted by: Carol I November 23, 2004 08:30 pm|
This is quite interesting as most of the authors state that no awards were presented by King Michael. Do you have the name of the awardees and/or the decree numbers for the awards you mention? It would be interesting to see when and why the war badge of the Order for Merit was awarded during the reign of King Michael. I'm looking forward to hearing you reply.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 23, 2004 09:30 pm|
|Sorry I don't have any other information available. I t seems the number is unknown for the "For Merit" with swords . BTW what I wrote you I took it from Klietmann's book.|
|Posted by: Carol I November 23, 2004 10:07 pm|
I had the impression that none of Carol II's dynastic orders was awarded after his abdication, even though they were never formally disbanded.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia November 24, 2004 11:01 am|
|What exactly do you mean by dynastic orders ? (Bene Merenti or For Merit )|
|Posted by: b737 November 24, 2004 11:21 am|
Do you mean all the orders created during Carol 2 ? If yes , then you are wrong!
Think please at the following orders wich were awarded also in the King Michael period:
- ord. virtutea aeronautica
- ord. meritul cultural
- ord. pentru merit
- ord. agricol
- ord. serviciul credincios...........
|Posted by: Carol I November 24, 2004 11:33 am|
The dynastic orders instituted by King Carol II were:
- The Order for Merit
- The Order of the Ruling House
- The Bene Merenti Order (disappeared in March 1940)
|Posted by: Carol I November 24, 2004 11:35 am|
Do you have any names of awardees and/or decree numbers? I would be most interested to find out when and why these orders were awarded during the reign of King Michael.
|Posted by: b737 November 25, 2004 09:55 am|
|Sorry, for getting this information you must go to Bukarest and search in the "Arhiva statului" .I think you would spend some weeks there untill yo find this information.|
|Posted by: Carol I November 25, 2004 05:46 pm|
I have the impression that this has been tried already and nothing was found, hence the idea that these orders were not awarded during the reign of King Mihai. Furthermore, I did not see any photo from that period showing a person wearing these orders. This led me to the supposition that the (former) dynastic orders instituted by King Carol II and the Order for Loyal Service fell into disuse during September 1940-December 1947. I am however looking for any information which will either prove or disprove this.
I thus thought that you have some hard evidence that demonstrates that these orders were awarded during the period of King Michael, but it seems I was wrong.
So I am launching again the appeal for any information that will prove that the Order for Merit, the Order of the Ruling House or the Order for Loyal Service were actively used between September 1940 and December 1947. This information might be any of the following: the name of a person receiving the award, the decree number and/or date, a photo taken after September 1940 showing someone wearing the insignia of the orders under discussion etc. Thanks.
P.S. I think the discussion is now (Orders in use during the reign of King Mihai) quite far from the initial topic (regarding the badge of the Order for Aeronautical Virtue).
|Posted by: Victor November 25, 2004 07:23 pm|
|Yes, you are offtopic, but the digression seems to be over.|
|Posted by: Carol I December 29, 2005 06:11 pm|
| Now on eBay there is a 'Virtutea Aeronautică' badge with the central shield in a darker colour than the arms of the cross. Is this badge genuine or not?
|Posted by: boonicootza December 29, 2005 07:47 pm|
| Here is another one that is on sale on eBay:
|Posted by: Carol I February 01, 2006 09:08 pm|
| One more officer's cross of the Order for Aeronautical Virtue with a darker central shield. Lots of similar officer's crosses are surfacing lately!
|Posted by: boonicootza February 04, 2006 02:31 pm|
| Better pictures of the last one.
|Posted by: Carol I March 14, 2006 08:57 am|
| What about this badge?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 14, 2006 01:23 pm|
| You forgot to post this picture too.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 14, 2006 01:27 pm|
Sorry , this one is not a officer V.A. , it is a commodore Virtue. The seller didn't knew this , and it seems no one payed attention on detalils.
|Posted by: Carol I March 14, 2006 01:40 pm|
What was the size of the badge?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 14, 2006 06:29 pm|
| Here's the photo , I think it speaks for itself.
|Posted by: b737 March 14, 2006 06:58 pm|
|You lucky one....|
|Posted by: Carol I March 14, 2006 09:12 pm|
Yes it does. And both badges appear to have a darker centre shield.
|Posted by: Carol I March 14, 2006 09:31 pm|
One more badge for comparison. What is your opinion? Are these authentic badges or high quality reproductions?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 15, 2006 05:08 pm|
|The one from eBay is genuine , the second one I doubt is ok. Anyway to be certain about them you shoud study them. Or at least to look at some good quality photos.|
|Posted by: Carol I March 15, 2006 05:55 pm|
Thanks for your opinion. Do you happen to know the provenance of the piece?
The interesting thing is that the pieces exhibited in the National Military Museum seem to have "pointed" hilts as the second piece I posted, while the one you mention as genuine has somewhat broader hilts. Could this detail indicate two manufacturers?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 15, 2006 10:45 pm|
|Unfortunately I know only the former owner of the piece , not the one who was awarded with it. Your theory about different manufacturers could be valid , the problem is that there are no informations or hallmarks to indicate if there were more manufacturers . The only photo which I could find with the commodore VA first model it was in Klitmann's book.|
|Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 16, 2006 02:21 pm|
Although this piece looks to be original, a collector must consider if the piece was married and put together for the purpose of obtaining maximum sales price. The ribbon and the silver bars are original and both show signs of age. Tarnish, staining, and fading. But, were the bars added onto the ribbon last week ???? If the ribbon under the bars are equaly faded and stained, I would say yes. It was modified for the purpose of the auction to be able to get another $200.00 Euros sales price. If the ribbon looks new under the bars and had not seen sunlight in 50 plus years, then it has more credibility as being original to the order. What also bothers me about this auction is how many bidders sprung up at the last minute with "0" feedbacks. Where did all these new found collectors of Romanian orders come from ? A common tactic used by Ebay dealers to bid up the sales price which is considered illegal by Ebay. Dealers will use multiple names or have freinds and relatives bid on their items. Proving it and enforcing Ebay policy to protect the buyers is seldom encountered. A lot of dealers have gone to hide a bidders identity for the purpose of "Protecting the identities of the buyers". Completely irrelevant. It protects the dealers who use multiple names on Ebay to bid on their own items driving up the prices to acheive maximum sales price.
Note : This is strictly commentary. It does not mean that this particular dealer was involed in any unethical practices nor any unethical practices occured in this particular auction transaction. The point made is that even though the order is original, it could have also been a married piece which would then make it not original.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 17, 2006 05:46 am|
Are you bidding often 341 euros for doubious pieces ?? C'mon you know that piece was okay.....
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 24, 2006 08:32 am|
The only two manufacturers known (from Klietmann) are : Rudolf Souval from Wien and Karnet from Prague. Also he mentioned , I quote : "among others". Probably as well the "Monetaria Nationala" made them too.
|Posted by: Cuza March 24, 2006 02:37 pm|
Weiss manufactured a Gold Merit cross, w/o swords, Carol II issue.
|Posted by: Carol I April 06, 2006 07:06 am|
As did Lavrillier.
|Posted by: millerbean April 06, 2007 12:06 am|
| Is there a list of German pilots that recieved this award,
thanks any help will be useful
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia May 02, 2008 09:15 am|
|[B]Unfortunatly there is no list even for the Romanian pilots....|
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger January 10, 2009 06:01 pm|
| Any thoughts on this item?? on sale on e-bay by seller ww2ro
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: Victor January 11, 2009 09:43 am|
Partial lists exist. I worked for a while on it, but abandoned for lack of available time. Essentially one needs to go through the Monitorul Oficial each month from 1930 to 1947. I could not find all those months in one place and abandoned the work, but maybe someone at the Air Force Museum continued. They already had a rather large list when I started.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia January 26, 2009 03:45 pm|
|Kev, these pictures are not by mistake that bad. This is a fake.|
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger January 26, 2009 04:18 pm|
Thanks for the info nice seller name though ww2ro he is using, cheeky bugger,
hopefully he is not a member here.
Kevin in Deva
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia February 02, 2009 02:42 pm|
| Kevin, here is an authentic Cross , manufactured by Lavrillier.
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger February 02, 2009 09:16 pm|
Many thanks for that, hopefully this will warn others
to be weary about dealing with such a seller of fakes.
I did not bid on it.
Kevin in Deva
|Posted by: Geto-Dacul February 03, 2009 05:08 pm|
| Sorry guys but ww2ro's gold cross is original.
I am the winner of the auction and I am not dissapointed with the cross I received. The pictures are really bad, it's true, but the item meets the expectations. I can see Lavrillier's signature on the reverse shield, just under the right wing. The cross is made of gilted bronze so oxidation is still possible. Too bad that the ring was "bumped".
|Posted by: New Connaught Ranger February 03, 2009 06:42 pm|
Congratulations and thanks for the info,
Looking forward to seeing some good close-up pictures of your new item
Kevin in Deva.
|Posted by: PenkOne July 14, 2013 03:41 pm|
| Hi guys ! I want to ask you about this one :
It is original or it's fake ?
I wait for an answer.
Thank you very much.
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia September 10, 2013 07:56 am|
|Hi Iulian, I have no doubt that is a genuine one! At least I would buy it without hesitation.|
|Posted by: PenkOne October 11, 2013 07:19 pm|
Thanks for your answer.
But tell me if you can why the middle is black and not white or blue as usual ?
|Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia February 20, 2014 07:07 am|
|Iulian, sorry I have no explanation for that, I have seen both colors on original ones. I can only speculate that the color is different because of various jewelers. Once again, is just a supposition not a proven fact.|