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WorldWar2.ro Forum > Awards & Badges > Some period photos....

Posted by: erikofnorway June 20, 2006 11:43 am

I am new to this forum, but thought the rest of you would like to see some photos of my good friend and neighbor who served in LAH during WWII as a pioneer. One of his main jobs was being a motorcycle orinance for among others Sepp Dietrich and Panzer Meyer. During his time in Rumenia he was awarded "Order of the Crown", "Military Virtue Medal" and "Loyal Service cross".

I am trying to find out how to upload photos here but have some problems.

Erik

Posted by: Carol I June 20, 2006 01:44 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 20 2006, 12:43 PM)

I am new to this forum, but thought the rest of you would like to see some photos of my good friend and neighbor who served in LAH during WWII as a pioneer.

What does "LAH" stand for?

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 20 2006, 12:43 PM)

I am trying to find out how to upload photos here but have some problems.

Try the http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2093.

Posted by: erikofnorway June 20, 2006 01:48 pm

LAH = Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler

Thanks for the link. I'll work on it when I get home tonight and see if I can figure this out.

Erik

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 12:47 am

OK, here we go......

I actually just came back from his house.

This photo was taken in 1943. He subseqently (in 1945) also got a RK for singlehandedly taking out 3 Russian tanks. Unfortunately, this was never entered into the official records.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 12:49 am

Here is a close up of the medals from that photo.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 12:51 am

He still has his medals, but the Order of the Crown is damaged as the center piece is missing. I am planning to replace this medal for him.

Here is his wedding photo.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 12:53 am

Some more details from that photo:

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 01:02 am

And here are both of us taken a couple of months ago.

http://imageshack.us

I hope you enjoyed them.

Erik

Posted by: Alexei2102 June 21, 2006 12:29 pm

Very nice photos, thank you very much for sharing. About the RK for taking out the three Russian tanks, was he awarded the cross before or after May 1945 ? My opinion is that he should at least have the 1957 version, as in the cases of the Kurland cufftitle. Perhaps there is the Soldbuch entry, but not the cross itself. Oh, and does he still has the three TDB ? I would love to see a picture of those three together.

All the best,

Alex

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 01:21 pm

The three tanks were taken out in April 1945 outside of his home town of Breslau. At that time he was under Volksturm command. The three tanks were taken out by Panzerfaust as the Russian forces advanced through the town. The entry was made in the Soldbuch, but unfortunately he has since lost the book. The RK he was given was a EKII on a long ribbon as a RK was not available. He was then given leave and went on vacation to Austria to visit his sister. Before this vacation was over, the war ended. No, he was not given any tank destruction strips for these 3 tanks, even though he should have. He was however awarded a tank destruction strip for taking out a tank in Kherson while in LAH. He was a couple of months later asked to remove this from his uniform as they found out that the tank was already destroyed.

The interesting thing, is while he was in Austria, there was an article in the local paper there about his victory over the 3 tanks where he is named and everything. I have a copy of the article and he still has the original one.

He then went to Italy where he was taken prisoner by the Americans. He managed to escape and went to the Vatican where his wife and himself were given Vatican passports. He then moved to Argentina where he stayed until 1960 when he moved to New York. He is today a U.S. Citizen. He has not had much contact with many other vets since the war, and have not shared his stories until I got in contact with him.

Of interest is also that he was a very close friend of RK w/oakleves holder Heinz Macher. He was able to get in contact with Macher just before his death a few years ago after his wife spotted Macher on a documentary here in the U.S.

Posted by: Alexei2102 June 21, 2006 06:23 pm

Very useful and interesting info. Many thanks Erik. I know for a fact that he is elligible for a RK (1957 version). Perhaps, if he wants, he can make the request through the proper channels, and get it, along with the three TDB (1957 version also). Surely he can prove his claims, as of course there must be some written recordings also in the Bundeswehr archives.

All the best,

Al

Posted by: erikofnorway June 21, 2006 06:34 pm

Thanks for that Alexei. I have already checked, and the organization that would qualify him for the 57 RK no longer exists. I guess these guys are getting so old and very few are left. At the end I don't think he cares so much, but I would certainly have liked to see it just to get the record straight. But there are many others that never was entered in the last weeks of the war.

I have instead started to record and preserve as much of his history as possible. I have several hours of DVD recordings with him, and spend hours every week going through books as well as his memory. What amazes me is at the age of 87 and after a stroke, 3 wifes and 61 years his mind is so amazingly sharp. But then again, these guys were not regular guys.

He tells me that he was also together with his Rumenian order also given land in Rumenia. He was joking with me and asked what I thought of him going back to claim this.

He further tells me that he was given a Rumenian Ritterkreutz (as he calls it) to wear in the neck. But that he was not allowed to wear it by his commanders. I have not been able to determine what order that would have been as it does not appear on any of his photos, nor does he have in amongthe medals he has left. May be someone else could help me clarify this here? May be he is mixing this up with the Order of the Crown?

Erik

Posted by: Alexei2102 June 21, 2006 07:20 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 21 2006, 06:34 PM)

Hi Erik,

I really do not know much about ww2 Romanian orders, but I do know from German sources that the equivalent of the RK in Romanian terms was the Order of Michael the Brave. Known German recipients were:

- Walter von Brauchitsch
- Hermann Göring
- Erich von Manstein
- Gerd von Rundstedt

Perhaps your vet friend is making a confusion, perhaps he is right. With no soldbuch available, we are drawing conclusions based only on his memories.

I will check my LAH files, and see with what I will came up. Could you please PM me with the vet's name ? It will be easier for me to search.

All the best,

Alex

Posted by: Victor June 22, 2006 07:19 am

Erik, you have here a list of the German recepients of the Mihai Viteazul Order: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=28244

If he said that the order he received was to be worn around the neck I personally doubt it was the MV Order, because only the 2nd class was worn like this and usually only German generals received it. It was probably the Commander class of the Order of the Romanian Crown, which he already had. This was also worn around the neck.

Posted by: erikofnorway June 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Victor, am I correct in my understanding that the Order of the Crown can be worn both around the neck and on the chest? Does that mean that what he refers to is actually the medal he is weraing on his chest on the photos?

Erik

Posted by: Victor June 22, 2006 02:03 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 22 2006, 02:59 PM)

There were several classes, some of which were worn on the chest and one that was worn around the neck (the Commander class). ee here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/decoratii/?article=111

Posted by: Carol I June 22, 2006 02:25 pm

QUOTE (Victor @ Jun 22 2006, 03:03 PM)

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 22 2006, 02:59 PM)

There were several classes, some of which were worn on the chest and one that was worn around the neck (the Commander class). ee here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/decoratii/?article=111

There were actually two classes with badges worn on a ribbon around the neck: Commander and Grand Officer. Actually it was the same badge, but the Grand Officers had a further star on the chest.

Posted by: Carol I June 22, 2006 05:07 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ Jun 21 2006, 07:34 PM)

He further tells me that he was given a Rumenian Ritterkreutz (as he calls it) to wear in the neck. But that he was not allowed to wear it by his commanders. I have not been able to determine what order that would have been as it does not appear on any of his photos, nor does he have in amongthe medals he has left. May be someone else could help me clarify this here? May be he is mixing this up with the Order of the Crown?

It could be that he was mislead by the name of the badge he received ("Knight's Cross of the Order of the Crown") and assumed it was worn in the same manner as the German Knight's Cross. And when he attempted to wear it as a neck badge his superiors took notice and informed him about the correct manner of wearing it.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 15, 2006 08:43 pm

Further to this thread, my friend unexpectedly handed me an envolope on Sunday that contained all of his medals and awards, including his field version of the RK awarded by to him personally by Heinz Macher in April 1945 in a staff car on the way to Berlin.

I am now doing an effort to restore his medals and add the awards missing. The original medal ribbons as shown on the previous photos is intact, but all the medals has been removed. The medals that came loose were:

-East Front Medal
-Order of the Star (damaged - will need replacement)
-Military Bravery Medal (Silver)
-Military Bravery Medal (Gold) - damaged, missing back center piece
-Loyal Service Cross

Close Combat Clasp - Bronze
Infantery Assault Badge - Bronze
Infantery Assault Badge - Silver
Panzer Destruction Strip - Cloth version

The EKII is missing, but I have one.
Also missing, but on order from Weitze are Black and Silver Wound Badges, Krim Shield and Sport Badge (bronze) which will complete his medals.

Now I have a couple of questions:

1. Are there several versions of the Order of the Star, such as Silver and Gold? The medal I have now is badly tarnished, but appears to be gold. Also, the miniature ribbon strip that came along has the Order of the Star with Gold Swords. I want to be sure I obtain the right version.

2. For the military Bravery Medal, which one is mounted on the photos above? It appears to be gold (or is it Bronze?)? And I assume that this would be the correct one to mount, although it is damaged to back side?

3. In what way are the medals attached to the ribbons? Is there a specific way this was done? Do you recommend that I send this to a professional?

I am open to any suggestions.

Erik

Posted by: b737 November 16, 2006 08:41 am

URL=http://imageshack.us] user posted image

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Hi Erik,
if you are meaning the bar from this photo you have this medals/orders on it:
1- EK

2- Winterschlacht im Osten

3- Romania : Order of the Crown (not Star!).2nd model with swords-it could be a knight because the "rosette"on the ribbon is missing! The Officer grade has a "rosette"on the ribbon.But if you are saying that the original piece was golden than it is an Officer!

4- Romania : Military Virtue Medal (wich class?).There are only 2 classes,I think he had the second class(in silver)

5- Romania : Loyal Sevice Cross (wich class ?),2nd model with swords.This medal has 3 classes! On the photo the medal has a darked colour, I think he has recived the 3rd class(bronze).

In Your description you are talking about 2 military bravery medals but I see only one on this bar!
If the bar has been changed maybe you can post a photo from it.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 11:48 am

Yes, that is the exact bar I have.

The medal (Order of the Crown) I have appears to have been gilted. On the small bar he gave me, the ribbon has GOLD swords in cross.

There are 2 Military Virtue (Bravery) Medals in the lot. One silver and one gold. Then I assume the highest one should be mounted on the ribbon, gold? Only one is mounted on the ribbon.

Erik

Posted by: b737 November 16, 2006 02:18 pm

Maybe you can ask your friend if he remembers wich medal was on the bar at the time as the picture was made!The golden or the silvered one.If not then I would put the golden one!

Posted by: Claudiu1988 November 16, 2006 03:45 pm

Hello erikofnorway, can you put some photos with the medal bar ant the other medals and orders?

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 03:59 pm

I will take some photos of his medals as they are now and post them this week end.

Based upon the period photo, I believe the Military Bravery Medal to be gold (it appears darker than the known silver ones visible).

Also, when it comes to the attachment of the medals themselves, does anyone know how they are to be attached? Based upon the photo and remains on the ribbons, it appears that the medals were "stabilized" with a thread loop around the base and the ring attached under the ribbons?

Erik

Posted by: Claudiu1988 November 16, 2006 04:03 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 16, 2006 03:59 pm)

Thanks I can't wait to see them.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 11:24 pm

I just took some quick photos (with flash) tonight. Certainly not as sharp as I like them, but it gives you an idea of what state the medals and awards are today.

Here is one of the whole lot.

Erik

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 11:27 pm

The Order of the Crown. Is it gold or silver?

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 11:29 pm

The Military Bravery Medals

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway November 16, 2006 11:31 pm

And ribbons.

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: Claudiu1988 November 17, 2006 09:42 am

Thanks for the pictures, the lot is fabulos I like it.

Posted by: Claudiu1988 November 17, 2006 09:49 am

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 15, 2006 08:43 pm)

The EKII is missing, but I have one.
Also missing, but on order from Weitze are Black and Silver Wound Badges, Krim Shield and Sport Badge (bronze) which will complete his medals.

For the lot to be complete you will also need a EKI. As I know he couldn't get an RK if he hadn't got an EKI. Am I right?

Posted by: b737 November 17, 2006 12:20 pm

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 16, 2006 11:31 pm)

And ribbons.

http://imageshack.us

Hi Erik,
it seems that they have made a mistake with this bar assembly!
On the big bar the Order of the Crown has the Military Virtue ribbon (wich is ok!) and the Military Virtue medal has the ribbon from the Order of the Star first model!!!!
On the miniature bar,the Order of the Crown has the regular ribbon for this order
and the Military Virtue medal also!

The Order from the Crown (with swords!),could have been awarded with 2 kind of ribbons!With Military Virtue ribbon or the regular ribbon.

I don't know why have they used the ribbon from the Star Order for the Military Virtue medal! Maybe for lack of ribbons,they have used this one, I don't know!

I wouldn't change it, even if is not accurate!

Regarding the Crown Order...from your photo...it seems to be a Knight (silvered).

Posted by: erikofnorway November 17, 2006 12:25 pm

You are right, but during the last few weeks of the war many strange things happened. He was never awarded the EKI. The only RK he received was this crude "field version" which was awarded by Heinz Macher in a staff car on the way to Berlin during first half of April 1945. Macher gave him this cross together with one of his cuffbands and entered into his soldbuch.

I have a letter from Reichfuhrer SS dated in April 1945 that congratulates him on this victory in Breslau January 45, and also a newpaper article from Austria telling his story. Unfortunately, there is no reference anywhere to the RK.

The signed photo of Macher was sent him in January 2001 just months before Macher passed, and is addressed to him here in Florida.

Erik

http://imageshack.us

http://www.frontkjemper.com

Posted by: erikofnorway November 17, 2006 12:27 pm

QUOTE (b737 @ November 17, 2006 12:20 pm)

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 16, 2006 11:31 pm)

And ribbons.

http://imageshack.us

That is very interesting!!! Remember what I said in one of my earlier posts, that he claims he received the "Rumenian Knight Cross" to wear in his neck, and that his officers told him he couldn't wear it. Do you think by any chance that this is the Order of teh Star? Isn't this worn in the neck? Just wondering here.....

Erik

Posted by: b737 November 17, 2006 12:32 pm

It depends of the grade that he has recived!
For all romanian orders the neck badge is the Commander grade.
He could have recive this order, why not , but with this kind of ribbon he must have got it before 1932.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 17, 2006 12:37 pm

QUOTE (b737 @ November 17, 2006 12:32 pm)

Ok, thanks for clarifying. He probably refered to the Order of the Crown.

Erik

http://www.frontkjemper.com

Posted by: b737 November 17, 2006 12:43 pm

Is it possible that he has recived the Michael the Brave order?
In this case the neck badge is the second class !
But according the rules for awarding this order he must recive first the 3rd class
before he recives the second one.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 17, 2006 01:02 pm

QUOTE (b737 @ November 17, 2006 12:43 pm)

Is it possible that he has recived the Michael the Brave order?
In this case the neck badge is the second class !
But according the rules for awarding this order he must to recive first the 3rd class
before he recives the second.

I think what you see above is it for Rumenian orders that he received. Keep in mind that he would most likely have displayed any other medals on his photo taken in the summer of 1942. Problem now is that he gets very confused because of his age. He does not know the English or Rumenian names of the medals he received.

Erik

http://www.frontkjemper.com

Posted by: b737 November 17, 2006 01:09 pm

Ok, than in the whole "story" the only one thing that doesen't have his place there is the ribbon fron the Star Order!
But how I said before ,I wouldn't change anything on that bar!

Posted by: erikofnorway November 17, 2006 02:03 pm

QUOTE (b737 @ November 17, 2006 01:09 pm)

Ok, than in the whole "story" the only one thing that doesen't have his place there is the ribbon fron the Star Order!
But how I said before ,I wouldn't change anything on that bar!

My intention is to restore the medals back into the exact state they were on the photo. And also add the known missing medals and awards.

This is why I rely on you guys input.

Erik

Posted by: erikofnorway November 18, 2006 07:29 pm

I spoke to him again today, and he tells me that the so called "Rumenian Knights Cross" was the Order of the Crown. It seems that as it was suggested earlier, that he had attempted to wear it in the neck, but was asked to wear it in his chest. Interestingly enough, he was awarded the Order of the Crown by the Rumenian Military Attache in France while he was in a Paris hospital in 1943. He got married later that year when the above photos of him were taken (correction).

I asked him if he had the Order of the Crown in Gold or Silver. He has always refered to it as "The Gold Cross", and tells me today that it was in gold. Does that make sense from the photos I have provided? The swords on the ribbon bar is clearly gold. The medal itself is golden, but it could very well be tarnished silver.

Erik

http://www.frontkjemper.com

Posted by: erikofnorway November 18, 2006 10:58 pm

Here are some more photos taken outside in the sun. Is the medal giltet or not?

Erik

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: erikofnorway November 18, 2006 11:20 pm

Here is one more studio photo of him. He is wearing the Military Bravery Medal in Silver (or is it gold?) which seems to be suspended from the button in his breat pocket. But he has far fewer medals than in summer of 1943. Is that the ribbon for the Order of the Crown on the bar next to his Frozen Flesh medal?

Erik

http://imageshack.us

Posted by: b737 November 20, 2006 10:14 am

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 18, 2006 10:58 pm)

Here are some more photos taken outside in the sun. Is the medal giltet or not?

Erik

]

It sems to be an Officer, there are rests of gilding on the order.

Posted by: b737 November 20, 2006 10:26 am

QUOTE (erikofnorway @ November 18, 2006 11:20 pm)

In this case I think that he wears the ribbon for the Military Virtue Medal.

Posted by: erikofnorway November 20, 2006 08:33 pm

Further to the information above, he told me that with his "Rumenian Ritterkreutz" (as he calls it) he received a HUGE and very impressive award certificate together with a certain tract of land in Rumenia (I cannot remember the exact area). The certificate was left at his home in Breslau, and was stolen by the Polish he claims.

Would this be in line with the Order of the Crown?

Erik

Posted by: mabadesc November 21, 2006 05:49 pm

For "Mihai Viteazul" and other orders, land was given in Sinaia (next to the military unit by Cabana Schiori) and in Predeal on Postavaru.

My great-grandfather received land in both of these locations. Though we sold the land on Postavaru, we still have a small vacation home on the land in Sinaia (between Peles and the military base).

I'm not sure exactly for what orders he received this land, but I sure would like to find out.

I think he also received other land lots as part of medal/order awards, but we lost track of those.

The lots are usually relatively small - 1000 m2.

Hope this helps.