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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Awards & Badges > Variations of the Order of Michael the Brave |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 16, 2006 03:47 am |
| I beleive that there was more than one manufacturer of this award and slight variations do exist between these manufacturers. I observe this by looking at three different Michael the Brave 1941 3rd class orders of the same period, (WW2 King Michael), that are in my collection. All are original with very slight manufacture variations. So with this information, I will assume that there were at least three makers of orders during 1941. Again, I am guessing that these orders were probably made by the State Mint, Joseph Resch and CFZ. Perhaps someone here can elaberate who has more knowledge on the subject than I. |
| Posted by: Carol I March 16, 2006 08:37 am | ||
This is quite interesting. Could you please post images of the three Michael the Brave crosses with the variations you identified? |
| Posted by: Cuza March 16, 2006 02:11 pm | ||
There are Weiss marked Michael the Brave and Aeronautical Virtue orders, at least during the period of Carol II. I have not seen any Weiss ODM that I can specifically attribute to the period of Michael I. I guess it is conceivable that there might have been some surplus? |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 04:27 am | ||
http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv1941f2ho.jpg #1 - Small M1, small date, small crown #2 - Thicker M1, thicker date, thicker border around cross, slight variation of crown. darker blue enamel. #3 - Large date, large cypher, large crown, lighter enamel. All three ribbons also differ slightly. |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 04:32 am |
| http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv1941b1bv.jpg Reverse side. As you can see, three different manufactures of this order that I can tell. |
| Posted by: Carol I March 17, 2006 09:18 am | ||
Thanks for the reply. I think I can spot the differences. Can you please post images with somewhat higher resolution? |
| Posted by: b737 March 17, 2006 10:39 am | ||||
I have a fourth different model. Regal Uniforma Colector, can you post better scans please? If you are looking at the scans that I have posted, they are all quality scans! How can we see the difference in this scan that has the size from a flea!!! Carol1 I think that this is a subject for a new topic, what do you mean? http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: b737 March 17, 2006 10:40 am |
| reverse... http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Carol I March 17, 2006 10:48 am | ||
Done! |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 01:32 pm |
| http://img107.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv41f1tt.jpg |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 01:37 pm |
| http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv41b2el.jpg Click on the photo. It will take you to Image Shack. There you can see the photo more closely. |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR March 17, 2006 01:48 pm | ||
It looks like there is a fourth manufacture of the MV order in 1941. I also notice that the points in the cross arms also differ slightly. Some have more distinct sharpe points, others not. |
| Posted by: crusader March 22, 2006 02:47 pm |
| This is one of the orders 3rd class of michael the brave I have seen a few month ago, hope you enjoy it: http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/3842/04903ei4se.jpg http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7667/04903et0ax.jpg http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5088/04903vs6jl.jpg http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7308/04903rs9ip.jpg Thumbnails inserted by host |
| Posted by: Ahile March 25, 2006 09:16 am |
| Nice, but on the ring or somewhere else it is marked by G. LEmaitre. Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 26, 2006 06:54 pm | ||
What is the hallmark of Lemaitre? Where have you seen it on other badges? |
| Posted by: Ahile March 26, 2006 08:08 pm |
| Hello Victor, I have not seen yet a hallmark of G. Lemaitre, but I talked to a collector/ specialist and he said to me, that the all the medals made by this person are extremely beautiful, specially Order Michael the Brave.I olso have seeen Order of the Crown and olso the Star of Romania made by Lemaitre. G. Lemaitre it is a legend. Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 26, 2006 09:14 pm | ||
If Lemaitre's hallmark was not on any of the badges studied by you, how are you so certain that the particular badge posted by Crusader has it? |
| Posted by: Ahile March 26, 2006 09:54 pm |
| I did not said that the medal, posted by Crusader has a hallmark of Lemaitre, I don't know if it is an original made by him.There are a lot of Lemaitre cases in this world. maybe someone put the Michael the Brave medal in a Lemaitre case. Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 26, 2006 10:05 pm | ||||
Then how must one read the statement you made yesterday morning?
|
| Posted by: Ahile March 27, 2006 08:37 am |
| To know if a medal is made by a jewerler, then you must have that medal in your hand to study it very well.If you have a case with the by G.Lemaitre name on it, it doesen't mean that the medal that is in the box it is made by him. Like in joseph Resch case, there are a lot of other medals put in cases made by Joseph Resch. Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 27, 2006 06:45 pm | ||
Nothing new here. But what does this have to do with your previous statement that the very medal posted by Crusader is marked "on the ring or somewhere else" (these were your very words)? |
| Posted by: Ahile March 27, 2006 06:51 pm |
| Sorry for my proposition.But it was a question, about if the medal has a mark of G. Lemaitre? Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 27, 2006 07:47 pm | ||
I see. Well, the fullstop made me take it as a plain statement, so never mind my original question. |
| Posted by: crusader March 27, 2006 08:28 pm |
| I am not happy about all the discussion here - I thought that you are interested in some pictures of the order and so I made the post. But now I think it was better not to do so because of all the questions. I could only say the following: First: The order was sell some weeks ago, so there is no possibility to see for a hallmark of lemaitre ot someone else. Second: The dealer who sells this order was ok, and he got this order by an serious ollector of romanian awards for a lot of years. Third: Yes, I am not an collector for romanian awrds in the last years, I collect more other european awards, so I am not sure that this is really an award by lemaitre - but I trust the dealer who said this to me. This is my statement. crusader |
| Posted by: Carol I March 27, 2006 09:37 pm | ||
I am sorry Crusader that our discussion has made you unhappy. I can speak only for myself and I may say that this was not at all my intention as I have found your images quite interesting. In the light of the thread on the http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2780 I also became interested in Ahile's original statement (or so I thought until he acknowledged that it was in fact only a question) about the marks on the badge posted by you and wanted to find out more. I did not mean to cast a shadow of doubt upon the authenticity of the badge or the honesty of your dealer. |
| Posted by: b737 March 28, 2006 05:31 pm | ||
Hi crusader, i am collecting since very long time romanian orders and medals and , belive me,in this period i have NEVER seen an 3rd class Michael the Brave Order that had some hallmarks! There are some pieces from the 1941 model made in silver for VIP's but they have been awarded in a box with the first and second class together(Hermann Göring for example!)! Regarding Le Maitre i have never seen an Michael the Brave made by him! This kind of cases were very frequent to that time. http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Cuza March 28, 2006 06:14 pm | ||
Third class in silver with Weiss marks: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2991&st=15 |
| Posted by: b737 March 28, 2006 06:20 pm | ||||
This kind of order has NEVER been awarded!!!!!! It is a probe! The decree sais that the metal used for this order must be BRONZE!!! |
| Posted by: Cuza March 28, 2006 06:30 pm | ||
What do you mean by "probe". Many Romanian ODM were manufactured in silver and gold, with and without diamonds, irrespective of the designation of the decree, and given on special occasions, to those close to the monarchy and to foreign heads of state. |
| Posted by: b737 March 28, 2006 07:00 pm |
| I consider a probe all MV orders model 1938 (1916 with swords! ) You have right, many romanian orders were made in gold and silver but in this topic we are talking only about the MV order! I repeat : there are some MV-s model1941 made in silver awarded in small numbers to foreign VIP's |
| Posted by: dragos03 March 28, 2006 07:14 pm |
| There are also MVs made in gold (both model 1916 and model 1941). These were privately-made pieces but were authorised. |
| Posted by: b737 March 28, 2006 07:30 pm | ||
I have heard also about this legendary pieces but I have never seen one, or a document that certifies this. Do you have more information about this pieces? |
| Posted by: dragos03 March 28, 2006 07:41 pm |
| A dealer once showed me one of these (it was a 3rd Class, model 1916). I don't know if it was original or fake. The same dealer told me that there are more such pieces. He also said these were made by different jewellers, so there are differences between them. |
| Posted by: Ahile March 31, 2006 08:08 am |
| I have seen diffrent things on the michael the brave 1916 class 3. The crown is smaller on some pieces and in some cases the crown is bigger? What is your answer? Ahile |
| Posted by: Carol I March 31, 2006 05:55 pm | ||
Interesting image! Wherefrom did you take it? |
| Posted by: Carol I March 31, 2006 06:01 pm | ||
This far I have only heard of an Order of Carol I with brilliants awarded to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in 1907. What other Romanian orders were awarded with diamonds? If the discussion will continue substantially on this direction I will split the thread. |
| Posted by: b737 March 31, 2006 06:42 pm | ||
Yes , you're right, there are differences at the crown-at all models! |
| Posted by: b737 March 31, 2006 06:51 pm | ||
It is a german book called "Die Orden Hermann Görings"-The orders from HG written by Ottfried Neubecker http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Carol I March 31, 2006 07:03 pm | ||||
Thanks for identifying the source of the image.
Another interesting thing with this image is that the badge third class appears to be of the fourth variety you http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=3055&view=findpost&p=47798 but with a more detailed crown. Would this make it a fifth variety?
|
| Posted by: b737 March 31, 2006 07:47 pm | ||
....the fifth, the sixt....who knows how many of them are! This is a silver variant, you can see the hallmarks on the ring from the second class! |
| Posted by: Carol I March 31, 2006 07:50 pm | ||
Well, we could attempt to count them...  |
| Posted by: Claudiu1988 April 02, 2006 03:30 pm |
| Order of Michael the brave http://imageshack.us Source:www.ebay.com |
| Posted by: Claudiu1988 April 02, 2006 03:31 pm |
| http://imageshack.us Source: www.ebay.com |
| Posted by: mihai April 03, 2006 01:10 pm | ||
| I thunk that This enamel is not usual type,If anyone have Order in the same type of enamels,COuld you posy the scan in this trad? I'm interested in seeing the scans, Mihai
|
| Posted by: Carol I April 06, 2006 09:02 am | ||
 Another Order of Michael the Brave on a medal bar from the same seller who offers the badge above. The suspension crown looks somewhat similar to some used for the 1941 model of the order (see below). Does anyone know when did these crown types start to be used for this order?
|
| Posted by: b737 April 14, 2006 10:30 am | ||
I don't know what kind of order this is but it is not an original MV-order! It seems to look similar with the compernsatory MV's given in the '90's to the knights that have loose or throw them away because of the communists! The same is available also for the "MV" posted previous by Claudiu1988 and mihai Make also your opinion. http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Carol I April 14, 2006 03:41 pm | ||
 Beside the crown differences, the order on the medal bar also appears to have a vitreous light-blue appearance, contrasting both to the appearance of the 'replacement badge' you have posted which has darker enamel, as well as to that of other 1916 badges of this order that have more 'opaque' enamels. This could be only a light effect, so I would like to hear your opinions as well. |
| Posted by: b737 April 14, 2006 05:05 pm |
| I don't know who has offered this pieces on ebay but if there were offered by the person that I have in my mind than it is normal that this pieces are fakes! He makes them! On the Order bar all pieces are ok excepting the MV order! Regarding the enameling he is using a blank replacement MV and makes experiments with enamels!......it could be so,I don't know his techniques! |
| Posted by: Carol I April 14, 2006 05:21 pm |
The hammer prices for the two items were 700 USD for the medal bar and 335 USD for the single MV badge.  |
| Posted by: b737 April 14, 2006 05:46 pm |
| I regret the buyers ! |
| Posted by: mihai April 15, 2006 03:19 am | ||
I think so.iT's too too highprices! Mihai |
| Posted by: mihai April 15, 2006 03:21 am |
| The detail of crown is rough manifacture.ribbon is cheap Russian style, THis is not good piece. Mihai |
| Posted by: Carol I April 15, 2006 07:40 am | ||
Can you please provide details for your remarks? |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR June 01, 2006 02:46 am |
| http://img302.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv1916frenchmount0oy.jpg I think you will enjoy this one. 1916 Michael the Brave order on WW1 French mount. This order was worn with the bar and screw balls at the end of the bar that detach and did not come with a chain. |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR June 01, 2006 04:01 am |
| http://img314.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jenescu6be.jpg Here is an autograph signed photo of General Georgescu wearing this order with the French style bar mount. |
| Posted by: Carol I June 24, 2006 08:25 am |
WWI badge of the Order of Michael the Brave belonging to Căpitan Chiriţescu Ştefan (from a http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1617&view=findpost&p=51926 by igor_ost) Note the later replacement of the surmounting crown. |
| Posted by: igor_ost June 24, 2006 09:21 am |
| Thank you !!!!! This Order is Original ? I see this Order 1st time |
| Posted by: Carol I June 24, 2006 09:37 am | ||
It's hard for me to formulate an opinion on the authenticity of this badge as I have not seen so many of these badges. But if you compare the surmounting crown in the photo above with that in the old photo of Capt. Chiriţescu (below) you would see that they are clearly different.  |
| Posted by: mihai June 25, 2006 09:45 am | ||
I think Order of Mv in this foto is the following type"Big crown". http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mv2322nr.jpg |
| Posted by: g_deploige June 27, 2006 01:06 pm |
| Look at http://www.klm-mra.be/klm-new/engels/collecties/OMD-albert/Roumanie/Michel_brave.html on the website of The royal Army Museum Brussels http://www.klm-mra.be |
| Posted by: Ahile July 03, 2006 07:19 am |
| i was wondering, if you maybe know, all the Michael the Brave orders had a carbord box or a box like the medal of Regal uniforma Collector. Ahile  |
| Posted by: Carol I July 03, 2006 07:32 am | ||||||
For the 1941 and 1944 models there are boxes similar to the ones below.
|
| Posted by: Ahile July 03, 2006 08:28 am |
| Thanks, on Ebay it was a Michael the Brave 1941 , that had a carbourd box, awarded to a german soldier. http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2b121pu.jpg http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5d123ar.jpg Ahile Source: Ebay Action |
| Posted by: mihai July 04, 2006 01:24 pm |
| I know that the seller sold other medal in ebay few weeks before,THis cardboard box may be belong to the medal. I don't know example of issued card board box with Order of MV. If anyone have example,Let me know. MIhai |
| Posted by: mihai July 04, 2006 01:27 pm | ||
I add other foto of the item in this tread. http://img481.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rac636tp.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ra3b36oa.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ra6b34oj.jpg http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ra8e30xr.jpg Source: Ebay Action MIhai |
| Posted by: Carol I July 04, 2006 02:08 pm |
| Mihai, do you mind if we join all your photos into one post only? It will keep this thread rather tidy. |
| Posted by: New Connaught Ranger May 02, 2008 08:08 pm |
| http://imageshack.us A fake I think ? Kevin in Deva. |
| Posted by: b737 May 04, 2008 06:28 pm |
| 100%...fantasy badge ! |
| Posted by: New Connaught Ranger May 04, 2008 07:38 pm |
| Hallo b737 many thanks for the info, a friend in Dublin Ireland bought it, hopefully he did not pay to much for it, and hopefully he can get his money back. Kevin in Deva. |
| Posted by: mihai May 05, 2008 02:32 am | ||
HI,New Connaught Ranger. I heard same replica as you see. This is thread. http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2991&st=30 Also,If you friends can sell it,I can buy it for study the replica. MIhai |
| Posted by: b737 May 05, 2008 09:02 am |
| Why do you say "replica"? In this case we cannot speak about a replica because this kind of bage doesen't exist! It is only a fantasy badge! It combines characteristics from all 3 models of the MV-order ! The front from the 1941 model, reverse from the first model and the swords from the 1944 model. It is a kind of "hybrid design" of tis order....something strange! |
| Posted by: maiortitulescu October 16, 2008 12:32 pm | ||||
http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/Images/Rumania/Ro-starorder.jpg&imgrefurl=http://users.skynet.be/hendrik/eng/39romania.html&h=565&w=469&sz=91&hl=ro&start=2&um=1&usg=__Xaph44_bi0xh7pOTSIWZtagMI4w=&tbnid=IDvvgRbjbzS3bM:&tbnh |
| Posted by: New Connaught Ranger October 16, 2008 06:41 pm | ||
Hi b737, just for clarification can you tell me if the 1944 versions have got the dates 1916 to the rear? and the date 1944 and swords to the front? Kevin in Deva. |
| Posted by: b737 October 19, 2008 03:37 pm |
| Hi Kevin, this is an original MV- 1944 type! http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m1cw7.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.phphttp://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m1ajl4.jpghttp://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php |
| Posted by: mihai March 14, 2009 06:26 am |
| It's great pieces． MIhai |
| Posted by: aviatiadasenzatia March 19, 2009 06:59 am | ||
Beautiful piece, is it yours ? |
| Posted by: Radub March 19, 2009 10:01 am | ||||
In the RAF Museum in Hendon there is a display of medals and awards wprn by Hermann Goering, including a few Romanian ones. Here are a few photos I took a couple of months ago.      Radu |
| Posted by: boonicootza March 19, 2009 10:27 am |
| Thanks for the pictures. I was looking for some time for good quality pictures of this display. Do you have a good picture of the 1st class of MV Order? |
| Posted by: Radub March 19, 2009 10:57 am |
This is the best I could do. I will try to get a better one next time I go there.   HTH Radu |
| Posted by: boonicootza March 19, 2009 11:44 am | ||
Thank you! |
