WorldWar2.ro Forum [Powered by Invision Power Board]

Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format

WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > ARR losses on 22.06.41

Posted by: mirekw October 30, 2012 04:38 pm

During 22.06.41 Romanian units had toal lost between 10 to 14 combat planes. All of them were bombers or reccon planes. The last figure 14 lost is probably most complete (12 in combat and 2 in non-combat).
Interesting is how many planes ARR did lost on 22.06.41?
10 or 12 or 14?

Regards,
mirekw

Posted by: Cantacuzino October 30, 2012 06:30 pm

QUOTE

16 planes were lost on 22 june 1941

- 4 Blenheim ( 24,38, 36, 21)
- 4 Potez 63 ( 1 , 4 , 19 , 20 )
- 2 Savoia S79 ( 1 , 17 )
- 2 PZL Los 37 ( 206, 214)
- 2 IAR 37 ( 22, 39)
- 2 IAR 39 ( 84, ...)

Posted by: _Vik October 31, 2012 12:58 pm

Boys,can you write the fate every plane from this list.Thank you.Lads in Odessa very interest this theme.

Posted by: Dénes October 31, 2012 04:11 pm

The details on the losses are mentioned in my book, From Barbarossa to Odessa, vol. 1.

Who are those "Lads in Odessa"? Perhaps they can correct or add info to what has been written in the book. Vol. 2 centres around the combat for Odessa.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: mirekw October 31, 2012 07:11 pm

Thanks I have missed these Potez 633 B2s

And gen Denes is of course wrong. You are not so detailed as you think, sorry.
In your books you are mentioned about 14 lost planes on 22.06.41 not 16.
See exactly own vol. I, p. 23!.

Your have missed 2 planes. Anyway this is good job, much more better then Bergstrom, :-)

Before you say something better to check in own work!

A) 4 Blenheim ( 24,38, 36, 21)

1. by 55. IAP (mjr Orlov, commander of 55. IAP) and second by 67. IAP (near Bolgrad, by sen.lt. Yermak) - very early, 2 next, I do not know.

4 Potez 63 ( 1 , 4 , 19 , 20 ) - 10.50-12.50

Near Bolgrad by 67. IAP,

C) 2 Savoia S.79B ( 1 , 17 ) - mission hours 3.40-5.25

Near Bolgrad and Bolgarijka by 67. IAP very early. BTW during take off one Savoia had crashed (no 13), but it was repaired I supposes, and the next during landing had crashed too.

D) 2 PZL Los 37 ( 206, 214) - 11.45-13.15

Near Bolgrad by 67. IAP or A/A, Romanian said 2 by A/A, but is possible 1 or 2 by fighters too?

E) 2 IAR 37 ( 22, 39)

Near Izmaił by 96. OIAE VVS CzF and possible one claim by A/A.
BTW: 96. OIAE VVS CzF had 15/16 biplane fighters: I-153 (3/3) and (12/13) I-15bis not 17 fighters as mentioned in gen Denes book, first is servicable, second all, including one unservicable plane. Took off not 17 but 15.

F) 2 IAR 39 ( 84, ...)

These above I do not know (one was destroyed by own bomb)?

Regards,
mirekw

Posted by: cenrex October 31, 2012 09:17 pm

QUOTE (mirekw @ October 31, 2012 07:11 pm)

Mirecz, forgive me to jump into your topic , though you remarks
regarding Denes errors kind of irritated me, but since you claim
perfectionsm , did you check your statement about Orlov as CO
of 55 IAP before making the remarks ?

It's easy to claim errors when in fact yourself
posting stuff with serious errors.

55 IAP didn't have any CO nor any pilot during that period
called Orlov ! The other two called Orlov , were Valdimir N. and
Konstantin D. and were CO's at 4 IAP and 146 IAP.

Therefore , the Blenheim was claimed by Maj.Orlov CO of 4 IAP
on June 22,1941.Secondly if you would read the memoirs of
Col.Korobitzin CO of 96 OIAE you will determine that facts
of Denes / Karlenko books are more or less aligned with the
truth ,period .

How do you say in English ...watch in front of own threshold
before remarking about the other ...Gyn Dobreh Panye !

PS : CO's of 55 IAP were Ivanov and Matveev[B][B][B]

Posted by: Dénes November 01, 2012 02:36 pm

QUOTE (Cantacuzino @ October 31, 2012 12:30 am)

16 planes were lost on 22 june 1941

- 4 Blenheim ( 24,38, 36, 21)
- 4 Potez 63 ( 1 , 4 , 19 , 20 )
- 2 Savoia S79 ( 1 , 17 )
- 2 PZL Los 37 ( 206, 214)
- 2 IAR 37 ( 22, 39)
- 2 IAR 39 ( 84, ...)

In fact, Potez 63 No. 20 and I.A.R. 39 No. 84 were repaired and returned to service later on. Total losses were 14 aircraft.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: mirekw November 01, 2012 03:21 pm

1. BTW no any Mirecz but Mirek or Miroslav, it is my true name.

2. True is true but not more or less true. As 1 kg is 1 kg but no more or less 754 grams or 1233 grams.

Before you say something better to check in own work!

Yes you are right it was 4. IAP, after the post I have just realised my mistake, it was written from memory, and it was of course wrong.

Blenheim no 38 was shot down at 7.15 a.m. Moscow time by major Orłow commander of 4. IAP. Vladymir N. Orłow was a commander of 4. IAP and had only 1 victory over Blenheim on 22.06.41.

Story with Korabitzyn's 96. OIAE is more then well written since 1945. There are only sometimes differences in amount of claims 4 or 5, mostly 5 are givenn and are some differences with pilot's name credited with these victories.

mw

Posted by: Florin November 02, 2012 04:45 am

QUOTE (Dénes @ November 01, 2012 09:36 am)

QUOTE (Cantacuzino @ October 31, 2012 12:30 am)

16 planes were lost on 22 june 1941

- 4 Blenheim ( 24,38, 36, 21)
- 4 Potez 63 ( 1 , 4 , 19 , 20 )
- 2 Savoia S79 ( 1 , 17 )
- 2 PZL Los 37 ( 206, 214)
- 2 IAR 37 ( 22, 39)
- 2 IAR 39 ( 84, ...)

In fact, Potez 63 No. 20 and I.A.R. 39 No. 84 were repaired and returned to service later on. Total losses were 14 aircraft.

Gen. Dénes

For a country with sluggish manufacturing, relying on planes imported before 1940, 14 planes matter...
Fortunately, not every day was like June 22, 1941. It seems that in the first day of an operation the losses are higher.
The Luftwaffe lost about 50 planes on September 1, 1939.

Posted by: Dénes November 02, 2012 07:31 am

There was no other day when ARR lost 14 aircraft in combat, in missions over the enemy.

Gen. Dénes

Posted by: mirekw November 02, 2012 10:56 am

The Luftwaffe lost about 50 planes on September 1, 1939.

LW had loot 41 or 44 combat planes over Poland on 1.09.39, but it had done about 2700 combat flights. This is quite big effort and rahter minimal losses. 1 total loss on 60-70 flights. Next about 40 planes were damaged < 60%.

Quite big part of LW's losses were non-combat losses (about 30-40 %, including 13 Me 109s). Total losses to Polish fighters (P.11 and P.7 with 2x7,62 mm) were "minimal" - 6 planes, more dangerous was A/A with 40 mm Bofors.

Romanian had done about 130-140 combat mission (GAL, if I am right 124 plus next reecon unit- 18) and had lost total 14 planes (12 in combat and 2 non-combat) plus several next dameged. There were also damaged fighters (about 10-11), a few had done belly landing (2-3?). It was very low intensive air action.

Most ARR losses, over 50%, were done olny by one regiment - 67 IAP with "old" I-16.

Soviet Air Force was on the first day also very inactive. In fact had fought only 3 regiment (4, 55, 67 IAP) from all 16 plus 96. OIAE. The fourth fighte regiment - 146. IAP had no contact with ARR. Huge bomber force was almost inactive - a few bomber mission, had "fought" 4 next regiment.

ARR losses in such circumstances were in fact very "small", when you compare it to potential of VVS RKKA and VVS VMF in this area. Losses inflicted by ARR and LW were also small 20-30 total lost planes in air and on the ground.

mw

PS.
LW losses were also minimal 1 total and a few recc. planes damaged below 60 %

Posted by: cenrex November 02, 2012 12:41 pm

[QUOTE=mirekw,November 02, 2012 10:56 am] Soviet Air Force was on the first day also very inactive. In fact had fought only 3 regiment (4, 55, 67 IAP) from all 16 plus 96. OIAE. The fourth fighte regiment - 146. IAP had no contact with ARR. Huge bomber force was almost inactive - a few bomber mission, had "fought" 4 next regiment.

What Soviet Air Force was inactive ? which are your 16 regiments ?

Once again you write something of pure speculative
nature and post inaccurate statements.

In addition to the 4,55,67 Polkas also the 69, Odessa FS ,149 & 247 Polkas
were very active having flown several sorties on 22.6.41, there may
include severel other though their records are not clear ...of course I
can count the CHf 9 Polka too eventually also smaller amphibious air units of
the CHf but their records are not clear, fact is they were airborne on
22.6.41

The 40 BAP of the Black Sea massively attacked Constanza area too.
Additionally an SB of 317 RAP and two SU-2 211 BAP conducted recons.

This as far as the units close to the Rumanian border
are being concerned ,other farther units were active too.
On the SW front the resistance was swift since btw.
the Odessa military district just completed manuevers
which started a while before the war. Read OKW and 4 Luftflotte
messages concerning the subject.

As into your other statements regarding Poland I have no
knowledge therefore I won't comment. I have no doubts
you know the Polish history though the Soviet and Rumanian
ones is something which definitely are not your strenght.

Posted by: cenrex November 02, 2012 05:05 pm

Folowing is what I have on the
planes shot down on 22.6.41

Avekov 2 x ME-109 (plt Odessa Flt School )

AtRaskevitch V.F. 55 IAP ME 109

Astashkin 69 IAP DO 215 / JU-88

Moklyak 67 IAP 2 x S-79, HE-111,

Masnev 149 IAP ME-109

Orlov 4 IAP Blenheim

Ivatchev 55 IAP ME-109

Yermak 67 IAP Blenheim

Novitzky 67 IAP Savoia

Rogozin 67 IAP Savoia

Posted by: mirekw November 03, 2012 12:35 pm

Dear cenrex

Reading your comments, it amazes me, that you very strong instruct someone (as me), not having the same basic knowledge about described by himslef!

I have one big request to dear cenrex! Do not write more about, which you know so little. Your comments show a very shallow knowledge of the described subject.

Explicitly to discredit your own comments. You write clearly untrue and enter the person reading the written in big error.

Unfortunately, 2 air units (2 x IAP), you mentioned have nothing to do with the Odessa Military District. These two air regiments (IAP) were based in another military district.

Also, one of the mentioned pilots (claimed 1 victory on June 22, 1941), could not do this, because his regiment did not fight that day, was too far away.

Regards,

mirekw

Posted by: mirekw November 05, 2012 04:29 pm

A few correction to cenrex information, which are of course very strange and flase.

1. "In addition to the 4,55,67 Polkas also the 69, Odessa FS ,149 & 247 Polkas
were very active having flown several sorties on 22.6.41"

149 and 247 IAP had not been in Odessa MD, there were both in other fighter divsion (not mixed) - 64 IAD based in Stanislavov. so it was Kiev Special MD. They of course fought on 22.06.41 but not over Odessa MD. 149. IAP over Czerniowce. 247 IAP had been just formed, as a new regiment.

2. "Avekov 2 x ME-109 (plt Odessa Flt School )"
Very intersting, first time I have met with fighters over Odessa on 22.06.41 (Me 109 or IAR-80 or any others). It was to far for them to have such '"jaght or reccon" flights over the city.
No German or ARR bomber's unit had done any flights over Oessa on 22.06.41 too, fighter protection of course did not escorted them too.

3. "Astashkin 69 IAP DO 215 / JU-88"

The same reamarks as to point 2. 69 IAP had not any contacts with enemy planes over Odessa, but it is possible to shot to own bombers like SBs. Such incidents took place in the first weeks of war.

4. "The 40 BAP of the Black Sea massively attacked Constanza area too.
Additionally an SB of 317 RAP and two SU-2 211 BAP conducted recons."

The bomber force of VVS CzF had done on 22.06.41 only 10 combat sorties: 2 reccon over harbours before night plus following next over Sulina (4 SB of 40 BAP) and Constanca (4 DB-3 of 2 MTAP). The whole bomber force of VVS CzF had over 130 bombers (SB, DB-3, DB-3F), as for such huge amount only 8-10 bomber sorietes done before night on 22.06.41 it is any not "carpet" or massive attack. Next day both regiment had done about 100 sorties over Sulina (25) and Constanca (rest), but it was one day after 22.06.41. On the first day of war air action of VVS CzF was very low if you comapre it to the bomber/fighter potential of VVS CzF. 10 bomber of over 130, and massiv atatck, very funny.

The same with 317 RAP one sorite for a whole day of 40 (2 usnservicable) SBs on 22.06.41. Very low level of air action too.

Regards,
mw

PS
211. BAP had done also bomber attack on 22.06.41, if right remebr it was 8 or 10 Su-2s, which attaecked Romanian land forces, this is not any huge air action as on 22.06.41. MOst of Soviet air units were very unactive as on 22.06.41.

Posted by: Skarn April 06, 2020 09:59 pm

Hello,

Does anyone know from which airfields operated the Potez 633 of Grupul 2 Bombardement and the MB 210 of Escadrile 82 Bombardament?

Thank you.
Skarn

Posted by: Dénes May 17, 2020 08:55 am

On 22 June 1941, the base airfield of both Gr. 2 bomb. (Potez 633 B2) and Esc. 82 bomb. (Bloch MB.210) was Sihlea (in some documents spelled Sihlele), Moldavia.