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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > crash site WW2|
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 09, 2012 12:37 pm|
| hello to all
based on some stories of the elders in my hometown (near Targoviste) I am trying to gather as much info as I can about crash sites of ww2 air planes.
the few details that I have so far are:
-crashed B24 in a forest area (in the summer of '44) full of bombs, shut-down by AA from near Gaiesti(?). Burned in impact, all crew KIA. The bombs keep exploding for 2-3 day's in a row; after few days it was covered with eatrh by boldo's, it is possible that it may still be there.
-crashed german "Știuca" (Junkers Ju 87?) in school yard (42-43); one crew member KIA (burried in local grave yard, exhumed after the '50 ) and the other member of crew severely injured (parachute did not open in time, both leg's broken). plane remain's were removed.
-aluminium(?) propeller blade found in remote forest area by my grandfather in summer of '44, he trade it for few aluminium pot's in '45; had markings and bullet schrath on it.
(after reading TW post, it is possible that is one of BOOMERANG propeller (crash site near Butoiu) or perhaps another B24 crashed near my hometown.
-and at last the only physical evidence that I found: rear piece of an cartrige with markings SL 43.
thanks all and pardon my english!
|Posted by: muggs October 09, 2012 01:39 pm|
| Your best bet is the first location, i hope you'll be using a metal detector otherwise it's mission impossible..and you need a very good hint at the actual crash site...i can tell you from my very limited experience with this that you can wander for hours if you don't have exact info without finding anything of use.
If it's inside the forest it's somehow better because you'll avoid the regular metallic leftovers which you can find in the fields.
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 18, 2012 01:02 pm|
| can anyone help me with some information?
-does anyone has a list or a map of crashed airplanes in area Targoviste(N)-Natoinal Route 71(W)-Gaesti(S)-County Route 702A(E)?
-is there a B24 who crashed on the route to Ploiesti in aug '44 or any other campaign of WW2?
-did it exist an AA battery near Gaiesti?
-is there a JU87 crashed in village Picior de Munte?
-JU87 has 2 members crew?
-B24 has alluminium propeller?
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 18, 2012 02:29 pm|
| [QUOTE]does anyone has a list or a map of crashed airplanes in area Targoviste(N)-Natoinal Route 71(W)-Gaesti(S)-County Route 702A(E)?[QUOTE]
One B-24 crashed near Vacaresti on 5 may 44 shot down by fighters.
[QUOTE]JU87 has 2 members crew?[QUOTE]
Yes, the pilot and the rear gunner.
[QUOTE]B24 has alluminium propeller?[QUOTE]
Yes, B-24 and B-17 both had aluminium propeller
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 18, 2012 02:41 pm|
SL 43, means the cartridge was built in 1943 at St Louis Ordnance Plant, St Louis, MO.
It is a .50 caliber used in '44.
I also have one from a B-24 crashed in 1943 and stamped TW 42 ( Twin Cities Ordnance Plant, Minneapolis, MN - 1942)
|Posted by: Florin October 19, 2012 04:25 pm|
Is this your joke, or some Romanian peasants (the countryside people) really called it this way?
I can tell you something real: some Romanian peasants were talking very seriously about the Führer as the Fluier (English: whistle) - that was their understanding of that name.
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 22, 2012 12:10 pm|
| thanks alot to all, especially mr. Cantacuzino;
mean while I've also done some research and I knew what the marking on my cartrige ment.
(I will post some pictures next week)
so bit by bit the legends seem to be truth.
I will go this weekend or the next one in a trip and I will keep you posted with any findings;
mr. Cantacuzino, do you have an aproximate location for the airplane crashed near Vacaresti, and wich was his name (seem legit to be the same one with B 24 from my first post, the one that was "burried" ); Vacaresti is only a forest away from my hometown; and can you please confirm is it was any AA battery near Gaesti?
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 22, 2012 12:30 pm|
is not a joke Florin...many elders call ju87 this way...his nickname was "stuka" and in conjunction with his pointed nose and lateral fuselage shape wich did look a bit with a "pike"; resulted romanian nickname "știuca" or "știucili" (as plural)
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 01:48 pm|
STUKA was not a nickname but an abreviation of german designation STURZKAMPFFLUGZEUG ( Dive bomber plane)
But ofcourse in romanin STIUCA sound appropriate with STUKA .
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 22, 2012 02:10 pm|
|right!...mea culpa mr. cantacuzino|
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 02:13 pm|
Luchesse, your village is Lucieni ?
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 02:17 pm|
AA batteries were positioned near possible targets ( bridges, factories, refineries etc)
Did Gaesti had such an important target in WW2 ?
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 02:21 pm|
The location you can find asking old people living near Vacaresti village. It is the only US bomber crashed in the area. Only one member was badly injured and died of wounds later in Targoviste hospital,. The other members of the crew escaped by chute and taken POW.
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 22, 2012 02:45 pm|
| unfortunately my village is Picior de Munte, but still close enough to Vacaresti...
(btw, mr. cantacuzino are you sure that is Vacaresti (as village)?... or perhaps Vacereasca (as forest); second version seems more plausibile towards my hometown stories...
regarding AA bateries; I really don't know for sure, that's why I asked...I've only found so far just one aerial picture of Gaesti from ww2, showing in bold the train station and a wide area of warehouses nearby; it is also shown in picture that is a linking point betwen Pitesti and Bucuresti via Titu.
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 04:41 pm|
Vacaresti is the closest village from the crash place. The crash could be more or less 5 km distance from the village. Vacereasca forest - which village owned ? ( carei primarii apartine ?)
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 22, 2012 04:47 pm|
If there was no important target for sure there were no AA battery ( mayby only AA train).
Anyway the B-24 from Vacaresti crashed due to fighters attack so no more reason to serch the AA guns
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 23, 2012 08:38 am|
| Vacareasca forest is curently owned by Comuna Dragodana, but untill ww2 it was owned by Comuna Raciu -5 km SE of Vacaresti; (I have in my collection an certificate of appropriation of ww1 veterans from '43 ), it is there said that Vacareasca is owned by Comuna Raciu
-The area were I've heard that the airplane crashed is 8 km SSE of Vacaresti.-
Regarding AA train, I think that this version is quite plausible...in many stories AA shooting did not came from the exact same place (btw: wich army used this kind of ammunition :
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 23, 2012 10:38 am|
|Luchesse I found another B-24 crashed in the area. This time was shot down by AA from Targoviste ( Razvad -AA bunker from the hill ? ) on 15 july 44. All crew saved by chute and the plane crashed into the ground near Frasimal ( coordinates 44 50' and 25 20') probably misspelled name of FrasinDeal or FrasinVale|
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 23, 2012 11:43 am|
Also found more info for the B-24 crashed near Vacaresti.
Waist gunner Sgt. Maurice Kelly died of wounds and was buried in Vacaresti cemetery The other waist gunner Sgt. Arch Eakins died of wounds next day at Targoviste hospital.
Here is the story from 2nd Lt Ken Barmore ( Co-Pilot ) diary.
MAY 5, 1944
At 1420 we were to bomb the marshalling yards at Ploesti, Romania. We were flying “Devil’s Duchess.” As we turned from the IP onto the bombing run the anti aircraft fire over the target looked like a huge rain cloud and the planes ahead of us were barely visible going through it. We got through the flak ok, and dropped our bombs on the target. While rallying to the left I could feel several flak hits. I had just called each member of the crew and there were no hits then, but I knew we were in trouble now. Paul Krueger gave me the controls, rang the emergency alarm bell, the signal to bail out, and was out of his seat fast. His oxygen had given out and he went to the radio table to get oxygen. After I took over I knew for sure that we would not get home. I lost my oxygen about then and pulled my mask off. As soon as the alarm bell rang, Leon Stephens bailed out followed by Stauffer and Hawkins. Looking up I could see our group leaving us behind. We went into a spiral and down. The top turret was hit and Charlie Joines came out with blood all over his face and hands. I got out of my seat and cleaned some blood from his face and hands, and found that he was ok-only small wounds from the glass that put out a lot of blood. Lyle Clark came up to the flight deck about then and told me that there had been a bad hit in the waist and he needed help back there. We had feathered #4 and #2 and #3 about done, and the interphone, oxygen, and hydraulics gone and the plane was impossible to control. Paul Krueger went up front and out the nose wheel. Clark and Joines went through the bomb bay and out the camera hatch. I followed them but I got stuck between the bomb racks and couldn’t move front or backwards. I could hear the wind howling and the bomb bays were being soaked in hydraulic fluid and gasoline. I was being watched over because I broke loose and went into the waist. I had a seat pack chute in and there wasn’t enough room to squeeze through. When I got back in a B-24 again I tried to go through the bomb bays with the seat pack on and it was impossible. When I reached the waist George McDonald was working over Eakins. He got him to the camera hatch and got him out and I told him to get out too. Eakins and Kelly were both hit very badly from the hip area on down, and unable to move. I got Kelly’s chute on and asked him if he could just pull the release if I pushed him out the hatch. The ground looked awfully close when I went out, so I pulled the ripcord as soon as I felt the wind hit my face. When the chute opened the plane was on fire on the ground and I was certain that I would land in the fire, but luckily landed close but not in. As I got out of my chute I saw Kelly land about 150 feet from me. Then I saw McDonald coming down behind some trees. I was the last one out and probably the first on the ground. I went right to Kelly. He was lying just as he landed. He had nothing much left from his upper legs on down, but seemed to suffer no pain. I gave him a shot of morphine from the escape kit and tried to make him comfortable. We were surrounded by a large group of farmers, and one of them brought some water for Kelly. There were two Romanian officers there and later two village gendarms took charge of us. McDonald was brought up limping from his jump. We tried to make Kelly more comfortable and got the peasants to bring a wagon for him to bring him to the village. We saw that the people were friendly and I got one to go and bring my chute which we used to try and bandage or at least cover his legs. They lifted Kelly into the wagon and we started off for the village about a mile away. We were taken to the village police station, and they tried to find out where the rest of our crew was. We tried to make them understand that we had no idea as they had bailed out some time before we were able to get out. We tried to get them to understand that we wanted to get medical attention for Kelly but from their gestures we saw that it was too far away. Kelly was very ashen, and I didn’t see how he could live very long. He talked to us some and didn’t seem to be in any pain. We felt very helpless. They took us into a building and spread out our escape kits contents on a table and asked a lot of questions that we didn’t understand at all. A man came in and motioned for us to come outside. Kelly was almost gone and he passed away about 1700 with McDonald and I at his side. A very old woman put candles in his hands and blessed him, and cried as though he was her own. They kept us at the jail, and an old man brought us hot milk and bread. Although being hungry, neither of us could eat. We slept on the floor in a room in which there were two beds. About 8 Romanians slept in that room with us-they used the beds-we had a very bad night sleep. The odor was pretty overpowering.
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 23, 2012 01:18 pm|
it could be Frasin "La Mal" or "În Mal" (mal=shore) a local toponym...I don't remember for sure...
|Posted by: luchesse5508 October 23, 2012 02:08 pm|
| wow! very nice story mr. Cantacuzino...thanks alot!
I really don't know any bunker in or near Razvad, but I have alot of ex-highschool colleagues...I will "dig" for some intel...
in that area I only know some (pretty well preserved) bunkers in Moreni and surroundings...
|Posted by: Cantacuzino October 23, 2012 03:39 pm|
It is for sure I was there with Cipiamon ( a forum member) once. The view from the bunker on the hill are in both sides. One side view to Targoviste and the other side view to Gura Ocnitei oil field.
|Posted by: transavia December 26, 2012 01:28 pm|
|In the stories of my grandmother about her brother,used the same word "Ştiuca" to designed him like a Stuka pilot. Was the popular word for designed the JU-87 dive bombers,especially used by the population from the villages.|
|Posted by: luchesse5508 December 27, 2012 11:17 am|
| in the same way Bonaparte was called "buna parte" or Berthelot was called "burtalau"
on-topic: I have foud 2 buttons (I think and hope that they are from an military uniform)
after hollyday's I will upload some pictures; both copper, one is "single piece" can't figure it out what's written on it; and the other one is made out of 2 pieces (bottom and top, folded togeder on the edge) with a nice and stylish "7" on top
|Posted by: zaherr February 27, 2013 05:04 pm|
| first of all i want to salute every member of this forum and to thank you all for the awesome info found by me here.
and now something related to the topic:
some years ago i listened a ww2 story told by a old man living in Calugareni, Prahova County. the action takes part in the same village. quote:
"one day i saw in the sky a big plane, flying slow like a buzzard and soon after him two small planes like sparrows, very fast flying and shooting at the big one. in a few seconds the big plane started to burn and something fell from it. it was a bomb who did not explode but fell on a house killing a family. i counted nine or ten parachutes opening from the big plane, the last one being hit by a fragment from the plane and the airman falling to the ground. the rest of the survivors were soon caught by a mob of villagers who were very upset by the killing of that family and wanting revenge. i was a boy but i remember a young air man dressed in a brown leather jacket who was showing a picture with a woman and a child and yelling "Canada, Canada!". no one touched the crew and soon a german vehicle came and took every crew member and left. i do not know what happened with the poor guys"
that was the story, i do not know if it's true but i don't think that the old man had a reason to lie. maybe to exagerate a little bit.
i researched over the net and i didn't find anything about this. also i learned that tidal wave was an all american mission, so it can't be from 1.aug.'43. maybe later when the brittish joined the bombing on romania operations and maybe they had non brittish crews flying in the RAF.
so i ask to you if you can help me with some info, even tell me that i was lied by an old man. )
|Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2013 08:36 am|
Because it was during day time we can exclude RAF plane.
Conclusion american plane ( B-24 or B-17) shot down( E-NE Ploesti ) by two fighters. All bailed out and survived except one who was hit by a plane fragment and died.
After a little reserch I found :
On 24 june 1944 a B-24 from 450BG nicknamed "Shoo Shoo Baby" was shot down by enemy fighters near Mizil. One crew member was found dead.
The POW survivors report that villagers were angry.
On that day germans reported two B-24 shot down. Both victories were claimed by SG/2 pilots ( FW 190 unit).
|Posted by: Petre February 28, 2013 09:01 am|
Could be Jersey Girl, Holy Hammer...
|Posted by: Radub February 28, 2013 09:35 am|
| That is a different plane, different unit, different home base.
It happened many times that diferent planes had the same nickname. Just for fun, try to figure out how many planes were nicknamed "Pistol Packin' Mama" (take the rest of the day off ).
Later edit: Petre, I see that after your Wikipedia entry about Shoo Shoo Baby (which I replied to) you added a few other links. Trust me, you may have better luck by listening to Cantacuzino.
|Posted by: zaherr February 28, 2013 09:39 am|
| @Cantacuzino: you are fenomenal! "after little research" ) i was researching info about this for a few years now (not extensive search 'tough) . from where you get your info about crash sites and pow declarations? you have books? or via internet? if i'm not too indiscrete, please share to me your sources. i'm eager to know much about the events of ww2 in my area (ploiesti).
two questions remain:
- usaaf had canadians enlisted?
-@petre put a wiki link wich shows "shoo shoo baby" a surviving b17 an national usaaf museum. so i think the b24 that crashed, coincidentaly had the same name?
thanks guys for wonderful info.
later edit: i found this about Shoo Shoo Baby.
|Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2013 11:44 am|
Ok, you got me. After "little research" in my database, wich cover almost 20 years of deeply research ( books, romanian and US archivs, veterans romanian and US pilots diaries etc)
I compiled a list with all US planes shot down in missions over Romania. It's more easy to track the crash place because I add all the info from all sources ( romanian, german, US) in Excel file and I can filter by MACR, S/N, Unit, crash place etc.
For the year 1944 in the list are 202 B-24, 49 B-17, 43 P-38, 33 P-51.
|Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2013 12:09 pm|
Petre, there is no B-17 "Shoo Shoo Baby" shot down over Romania.
The other links are fictional planes and missions from a internet game.
|Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2013 12:10 pm|
Probably the old man misunderstood what the US pilot was yelling. So I would exclude the word "Canada" from the story mayby the pilot yelled the name of his wife or the county ( peasant don't know so much about USA names).
|Posted by: Cantacuzino February 28, 2013 01:13 pm|
If there was a dead airman as the old man said it should be first buried in the village cemetery ( Calugareni ?)
You can check with the village priest the records of burials for the year 1944.
Also more info you can ask other old people from the village.
|Posted by: Petre February 28, 2013 01:28 pm|
Yes indeed, it is very clear !
(And I found they were 3 B-17 named S.S.B.)
|Posted by: Alexandru C. February 28, 2013 01:36 pm|
|If I compare the mosquito with the stallion, numerically speaking, 327 planes shoot down It is not a little!|
|Posted by: zaherr March 02, 2013 08:44 am|
| @ cantacuzino: congratulations for your work!
have you read the story of that american pow that i posted in the link "i was shot down over romania" ? it must be from the crew that crashed near my grandparents village.
in 24 july 1944 must been a big raid to ploiesti. i had a little peek in some records from that days. and in that day has four entries at deaths field (morti):
no name for neither crew member just "anglo-american airman (aviator anglo-american)", and the death cause, "crashed near Corlatesti"(prabusit cu avionul langa corlatesti). i'm curious what your database says about this crash.
p.s. in the same record book i saw the name of a 23 yo villager who died in the western front the entries were like this"
"name, surname" 92'nd heavy infantry division, 1944 contingent., dead on the front (i forgot the place ) , cause of death, direct hit by artillery shell. what a horrible death. i hope his soul rests in peace somewhere and also the souls of all fallen romanian soldiers on all fronts.
|Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2013 09:31 am|
From what records you have that info ?
Indeed another B-24 crashed near Carlatesti ( Raiosul forest) on that day. The dead airmen were buried in Berceni cemetery.
|Posted by: zaherr March 02, 2013 03:31 pm|
| i have a friend who works at ploiesti archive. he let me peek in some records. can you please tell me the name of the a/c who crashed in that forest?
|Posted by: Cantacuzino March 02, 2013 06:11 pm|
The a/c didn't have a name. Not all bombers got a name.
You are very lucky with your friend working at Ploesti archive. You could ask him to help you to peek in records for more info about war reports for Ploesti area.
|Posted by: Radub March 02, 2013 08:30 pm|
| The most accurate method is to use serial numbers, pilots and units to identify planes.
The nicknames were seldom officially entered into official records. They were just decorations added by the pilots, often temporary.
Think of it like advertisements on a bus: if a bus is decorated with an advertisement for Milka Chocolate or Bere Bucegi, what is recorded by "dispecerat" is the licence plate number, driver's name and route number.
|Posted by: zaherr March 03, 2013 06:47 am|
| thanks for the answers guys! i will go for a bigger peek when i have more time. he told me military archives have more info but it's off limits.
can you tell me the serial number of that aircraft? i guess it's from 450 bg like shoo shoo baby, no?
|Posted by: zaherr June 19, 2018 11:28 pm|
Hi again guys. The years have passed and I still didn't forgot about the story told by the old man ( please read my previous posts on this thread).
I don't live in Romania anymore so that's why it took me so long to get to the village hall archives. I feel like I'm one step closer as I have a date!!! Found in the deaths register the family killed by the jettisoned? bombs on June 6th 1944 at 9 AM,, 4 people killed by aviation bombing (bombardament aerian) all found incinerated (so guess the bombs exploded afterall). However, no entries for the dead airman so either there were no deaths or the plane crashed in the neighbouring village territory ?
Done my own research and found only one downed plane fits the 'description' but not completely (attacked by multiple a/c, date and time correct, one crew died as the parachute failed to open, jettisoned bombs but crashed miles away East of Dragoslavele so I don't think it's the right plane). The plane was flown by Lt Ullman, B24 s/n 41-29410.
I'm curious what @Cantacuzino or someone else have in their records for this date.
Thx, looking forward hearing back from you and thx for reading.