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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > Arad July 3,1944 |
| Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 01:26 pm |
| All On July 3, 1944 the remenants of the 8th Air Force which survived the Luftwaffe attack at Poltawa on June 21, 1944 midnight....completed also one mission from Italy to Arad. I am attaching the 8th AF aerial photo of Arad post that attack. Would appreciate any images of the target as it looked then from the ground and now whatever is in there now. http://img9.imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img9/6196/frantic2missionreport25.jpg http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img406/5715/33040751.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 The target was the car repair shops and Arad M/Y Some 15th AF bombers may have also joined the 8th Air Force to Arad Thanks Alex |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 17, 2011 01:31 pm |
| The building marked with no. 4 is the main railwaystation from Arad. It looks exactly the same today, but the surroundings are totally changed. The bridge on the right side of the photo still exists today, also. |
| Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 01:36 pm |
| Thank you, can you ID also the rest ? Alex |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 17, 2011 03:55 pm |
| Hi yugit, I am from Arad and I actually live near the area bombed then! I remember my grandmother telling me about the bombing of july 1944 (she recalls that the bombing took place about two months before the Hungarian occupation) and she actually she show me where the bombs fell, because it was close to the house where he lived then! I have never seen these pictures before and I want to thank you! I try to give you the answers but give me time to figure it up! |
| Posted by: yugit December 17, 2011 04:15 pm |
| Andreas Thank you and I look forward for your details Attached a better resolution of a photo shot by a recon photographer or recon plane shortly after the withdrawls of the bombers. http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img834/954/arad372.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 The building complexes East of the river could be the Arad car repair works, but I am just guessing, note the significant bomb impacts East of the building, possibly a clue for not accurate aiming....also the 3 crates south of the same complex Alex |
| Posted by: romrail December 17, 2011 09:39 pm |
| Hello! It's the first time when I actually see photos from the bombing of Arad city. During the last years I was several times in Arad railway complex and I can say that I know the area quite well. Also, several of the people who work in the station, heared about or (in case of the older people) recall the bombing. Looking at the picture I can point out the following: 1 and 2 - are the actuall lines from the main station. Thus a little changed over the years, the place looks quite the same today. 3 - deffinetely is a the passenger railway cars factory still active today. 4 - is the station passengers building. Repaired after the war, is still used today. 5 - seem to be the station annexe buildings. Today they are still used asnd house a part of the passenger cars technic station (in romanian "revizie de vagoane"). 8 - 10 - Thus the city changed much, i presume to be parts of the freight cars factory, still active today. 11 - the bridge that crosses over the lines is still used today. P.S. the roundhouse near point 3 (the railcars depot) is also used today. I have several pictures made during the last few years in Arad station, so I can help you by sending a part of them, if you think they are usefull to you. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 01:24 pm |
| Hallo Romrail, Actually in some objectives you're wrong! 1 - I don't know what exactly points the line, since it isn't in the picture! My guess is the water tower which was used for the steam locomotives! 2 - I agree there are the train lines! 3 - I also agree, it's the passenger railway cars factory, nr.2 as it is known today! 4 - I agree, it was repaired many years after the war! 5 - warehouses for the main railway station! 6 and 7 - no clear indication what it points, so... 8, 10 and 11 - I asked an old neighbor who said he believes it was then barracks of an army unit, somewhere in the area, he can't say which one since it changed so much! 12 - the building still exists today, more research is needed! 13 - today it remains the main building of ASTRA VAGOANE SA, the former wagon factory of Arad, still in use today! 14 - my old neighbor said it was a munitions factory back than, now part of the complex ASTRA VAGOANE SA! 15 - same as 12, no ideea! 16 - the arrow who pointed down - it's exactly the location my grandmom talked about, but no ideea what objective it was back then - I vaguely remember about a factory or something ... sorry... - the arrow who pointed up - it's the former Tricoul Rosu factory, in the communist years the clothing factory, no ideea what was back then, in WW2! |
| Posted by: yugit December 18, 2011 01:47 pm |
| Andreas and Romrail, Thank you for your continous efforts and I look forward for your updates and later on photos whenever the time affords. I am attaching herewith mission reports to enable closer study http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img405/1618/frantic2missionreport24.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img43/2716/frantic2missionreport27.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img12/8049/frantic2missionreport29.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img706/8340/frantic2missionreport9.jpg&via=mupload&newlp=1 http://imageshack.us/g/864/frantic2missionreport9.jpg/ Best Regards Alex |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 02:39 pm |
| Thank you Alex! I will study them! When I identify something new or change something I said I reply! |
| Posted by: romrail December 18, 2011 03:14 pm |
| Hello again! Thank you Andreas for your corrections! On the other hand, i've shared the info about this post on another forum cocerning with the railway history and one of the users there made a photo capture from "google earth", with the same area as the one in yugit's photo. The result is shown here: http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s188/Radu161/Diverse/aradbomb1.jpg Thus now we can compare the two pictures and see how the area changed over the years. |
| Posted by: yugit December 18, 2011 03:33 pm |
| Romrail and Andreas Regarding the last photo posted by me which depicting a rectangular shapped building just East of the river I came up with cartierul cetatea...which in fact I doubt hitting the right spot...can you verify for me the google map coordinates of that building complex ? Thanks again Alex PS: Was AAR and Luftwaffe caught off guard on July 3, 44 at Arad ? as no AA neither Air to Air resistance showed up. The historical stuff available citing AAR and Luftwaffe struggling at Ploesti with 15th AF. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 04:56 pm |
| Many thanks too Romrail, It is indeed useful the google earth link you posted, but still I have to ask some older people (neighbors and veterans) to identify the objectives back then! Alex, I can't identify the complex of buildings from the image of Mures river, but I will check on google earth, as romrail sugested! I know that, as today, then was an small airport too, here in Arad, but no ideea if there were formations of German fighter aircraft there. As your documents said there was none... but from what I remember, visiting the city history museum, there were German troops (especially air defense units) near the city in august 1944 (maybe the dislocation occurred following the American bombing, I do not know) and also german aircraft formations in the vicinity... maybe from Hungary or Serbia? |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 05:12 pm |
| I hope I don't say something stupid, but reporting the image scale (taken from the reconnaissance US plane) to the current scale, the river Mures seems to small... don't you agree? Compare to the buildings and trees... couldn't it be a adjacent channel of the river Mures? Just asking... |
| Posted by: Pooky December 18, 2011 08:47 pm |
| No, in that area wasn't any water channel, so the only possibility is the Mures river... |
| Posted by: yugit December 18, 2011 10:05 pm |
| What I was reffering to was the lack of air support from the nearest AAR and Luftwaffe airfields and the lack of AA activity of that day around target area...additionally and for the sake of my research would be essential to determine what this complex was , worse case scenario to obtain aprox.coordinates. While the bombing report stating accurate hits , this complex was fully missed ....the bombing was executed from 21000-23'000 feet and mit seems that the Arad M/Y was severly hit. I am unable to overlap google map with the 8th AF recon photo many features have totally changed. Alex |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 10:21 pm |
| Alex, Where do you find any evidence of the importance of this objective near Mures? Is it from the US reports about the mission? Or what make you say it was a target or an important objective for the US bombers? |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 18, 2011 11:02 pm |
| I found a link that can maybe help : http://www.harta3d.ro/harta-3d-arad.html |
| Posted by: yugit December 19, 2011 09:07 am |
| Andreas Thanks for the map, the way that buldg.compound looks like to be a factory of war related material or something of that kind.....I am not sure however because the mission was initiated based on Soviets request and primarily to knock out the M/Y and car repair shops at and around the railway station BR Alex |
| Posted by: romrail December 19, 2011 01:27 pm |
| I've spent all the morning trying to identify the building complex in yuggit's second picture and until now I was unable to reach any plausible result. The only hint which might help us is the fact that, as one can clearly see in the picture's middle area, the complex seems to be right near some marshalling yard (there are just too many lines for a simple station). I've tried to compare the picture with the actuall satelite image from Google Earth and I can't find any hint which might led me to an accurate conclusion. The river is just too close from the lines and ther buildings. On the other hand, I've remembered and checked my sources about a hint: the same day (July 3 1944) Timisoara railway complex was also heavily bombed by US air force. Corellating the info above with your picture, I may make a supposition (I hope I'm not very wrong): the second picture is not from Arad, but rather from Timisoara city. Other facts which support my theory are: the position of Bega cannal, which runs very close to Timisoara station, the fact that even today the with of the actuall lines pack in the stations seems to be very close of the one in yuggit's picture and the presence of factories (which are still active today) in the neighbourhood of Timisoara main railway station. |
| Posted by: yugit December 19, 2011 02:10 pm |
| Romrail Thank you for your research. I know the issue is not simple and if you believe is Timisoara, then maybe you can get a hold of a photo which more or less will correlating the complex depicted on my photo. The history books of the 15th Air Force do not indicate as if that complex building belonged to target folders Arad or Timisoara. According these books , the 15th Air Force along with 8th Air Force ( over 600 planes and a large number of escorts) attacked Rumanian targets while splitting the formations when reached Rumania. Bucharest oil storage, oil refinary and Locomotives repair works ( presumambly Titan oil or Mogosioaia and Malaxa works ) Timisoara M/Y and Repair Works Arad " " " 8th and 15th Air Forces Giurgiu Oil Storage Turnul Severin railroad targets of opportunity Piatra, Bridge ( do you have details of this bridge of then and now) ==================== Szeged ..Bridge Belgrad ...Oil Storage The Luftwaffe and AAR seems to have been caught with their pants down as out of this massive armada, only 4 B-24's were lost.Between them also the Lib.of Lt.William Cubbins, later on POW in Bucharest and who wrote the famou books " The War of the Cotton Tails ".He died few months ago due agging. The 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian fronts air arm fleets seems too to have given great headaches on that day to the Germans and Rumanian troops too, through massive IL-2 and A-20 bombings at lower altitudes ,mainly straffing missions. Best Regards Alex |
| Posted by: Dénes December 19, 2011 03:07 pm | ||
Can you share with us which books do you actually mean? Thanks, Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: yugit December 19, 2011 03:38 pm |
| But of course , All history books of every BG's and every FG's of the 15th AF I have available. Many books written by the vets ,also Nathan Twining " The Air Battle of Ploesti" dated 1945, The Poltawa Disaster and Fighting with the Soviets. Most of the books may no longer be available and some not all as they were printed in limited numbers .As into my 1941 -1944 VVS and VMF histories ,many books in Russian and some in English..lately also family of the vets through the Russian Aviation & Navy forums. Alex |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 19, 2011 06:59 pm |
| Hallo Alex, Hallo Romrail, As I was not certain earlier, I presented only a guess, that the river from the second foto wouldn't be Mures river but a channel, but now, with the help of Romrail guess, I am more confident that the foto is not about Arad area, more likely Timisoara... can not bet on this but I believe more in this Romrail ideea! |
| Posted by: romrail March 26, 2012 09:44 pm |
| Hello everyone! Searching through my railway related stuff, I've came across several pages from a book published last year, called "Pages from Arad Town-planning's History". While reading the pages concerning Arad railway station's history, I've found a very intersting notice about the air strike from July 3 1944. "On July 3rd 1944, during the military operation Frantic Joe II, the Allies bombed Arad city. The attack, which was carried out in two stages, had four objectives: the train station, the railway cars factory, the Gestapo's headquarters (in the lake's area) and the cavalry divison's barracks (on Aurel Vlaicu Street)." Could the Gestapo headquarters actually be the building marked with #16 on the aerial photo from the topic's first post? |