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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > ARR - Romanian Royal Aeronautics > Armored train with AAA |
| Posted by: Iamandi December 17, 2004 07:53 am |
| Any info or/and pictures about/with the armored train who participate in defence of Ploesti zone? Iama |
| Posted by: dragos December 17, 2004 08:23 am |
| Source: http://www.modelism.ro |
| Posted by: dragos December 17, 2004 08:24 am |
| .. |
| Posted by: Victor December 17, 2004 10:21 pm |
| The armored flak train was nicknamed the "Caterpillar". It had 10 wagons and one engine. It had 36 light and medium AA guns on board and was camouflaged as a freight train. The wagons had fake walls, which would come down to reveal the arsenal inside. The most deadly pieces onboard proved to be two 4x20 mm guns, which could rotate 360 degrees. Out of the 10 wagons, only 6 were firing platforms. The rest were sleeping quarters, kitchen and mess hall, communications center and even a club wagon. Everything it needed. It was put under the command of Hauptmann Joseph Brem. General Gerstenberg had ordered the Caterpillar to be positioned north of Ploiesti in order to catch the bombers, which would have just come out of the target area by surprise. Instead it caught by surprise the 77 B-24Ds of the 93rd and 98th bomber Groups approaching Ploiesti from the north, as planned. "Killer" Kane, the CO of the 98th (CMO), estimated he lost 7 aircraft to the flak train and many other were damaged. A bomb took out the train's engine and it eventually derailed. After 23 August 1944 the train retreated northwards from Ploiesti firing on the oil wells in its way. It was stopped by a 7 men team, which blew it up near Baicoi. |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 11:54 am |
| Victor its a very interesting point you made......therefore I need to pose the quotestions: - Was there any knowledge or previous intelligence reports at the Roumanian and German INTEL sides about the possibility of an attack at the magnitude of the Tidalwave but perhaps was no specific knowledge about the date and hour ? - From all my records it looks that US Intelligence was aware about the flack trains though not as sophisticated as you stated ( 360 degree movement) - From what you state it looks that HAIL COLUMBIA with his group was flying straight into it ? - I still find it incredible that TEGGIE ANN carrying wasnt discovered , attached or intercepted Finally is there any chance you would post some larger photos on the flack camouflaged train? Many thanks again Alex |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 12:17 pm |
| Hello Victor I looked into my records of the Tidalwave and I found a very interesting photo I didnt pay much attention to before . It says the gunners of TEGGIE ANN of the 376th Bmb fire at a train carrying tanks .....I looked a little better , it doesnt look to me that the trains were carrying tanks, could it be the caterpillar ...what is your opinion ? The photo is from THE BLACK SUNDAY ...were the caterpillars equipped with radars or linkend to the radar sites for track and aquisition purposes.....I guess the trains were mainly for very low altitude targetting rather mid , also do you have any details or photos on the 7 planes lost to it by the Pyramiders ? Let me know thanks Alex |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 12:45 pm |
| I think that train is a fuel train - the weagons look round exactly like the ones that transport oil - they also have a "capac" on the upper side just like the fuel wagons. |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 12:48 pm |
| This what I was thinking too ( Tren Cisterna, Tren Petrolifier) though I am not certain is one Alex |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 01:01 pm |
| I have one question related to this photo: can you see the corn or "grau" on the ground (the one on the left side) - does it look like that because the picture is fuzzy or because of the propeller thrust ? (don't know if it is the correct term) |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 01:14 pm |
| from the original photo looks like prop effect .....though is an old photo and I might be wrong |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 02:03 pm |
| Here is a AA Defense chart drown in the comemoration of the TIDALEWAVE to honour the commander of the German/Roumanian flack batteries who defended Ploesti .The drawing depicts the shooting down locations of 31 Liberators and the aproximate crash sites of all 31 Liberandos . It was drawn by a Luftabwehr Unteroffizier Schutze later on for its commanding officer before leaving Roumania . From German language " Zum Befelshaber seine Flakartilerie zu Gedenken an die erfolgreiche Abwehr des Grossangriffes amerikanischer Bomber auf Ploesti am 1.8.1943 ( abschuss von 31 Liberators) . Alex |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 02:28 pm |
| Alex do you have a larger picture ? |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 02:34 pm |
| Yea send me by PVT your EMAIL address I gonna send it in large scale ALEX |
| Posted by: Victor December 18, 2004 06:13 pm | ||
Here is what "Killer" Kane told Ioan Grigorescu in an interview about the "Caterpillar"
Source: Bine ati venit in infern by Ioan Grigorescu, Nemira, 1995 |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 18, 2004 07:52 pm |
| Victor many thanks, did I.Grigorescu wrote a book about Tidalwave? where and when was it published and how and when did he manage to interview "Killer" Kane when in fact he died many years ago and when Roumania was still under Ceausescu at that time .Where this book can be obtained Thanks Alex |
| Posted by: Victor December 18, 2004 07:59 pm |
| As stated in my previous post teh book was published by Nemira in 1995, but I think there was also an earlier version of it published before 1990. It is obviously out of print. He apparently interviewed a lot of American airmen for the book and, unfortunately, only one Romanian (lt. Carol Anastasescu). He wrote many travel books before 1990 and I suspect he was allowed to travel rather freely around the world (he probably was conected to the DSS). |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 09:14 pm |
| I bought that book many years ago but I think I left it in UK :/ hope I get my hands on it soon.I also remember him saying he interviewed a lot of US crew members.The data found in that book was quite phenomenal - it even said exactly what type of bombs were used and how many were droped, how many did not go off |
| Posted by: Dénes December 18, 2004 09:17 pm | ||
Was DSS a division of the Securitate? Maybe that's why some veteran airmen did not talk to him?  Certainly, not too many average Rumanians had a chance to travel to the "imperialist" West during Ceausescu's times... Col. Dénes |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 09:19 pm | ||
Basescu did  Seriously now: anyone knows how we could get in touch with this man ? |
| Posted by: Victor December 18, 2004 09:39 pm |
| DSS = Departamentul Securitatii Statului. It was the Securitate. Ioan Grigorescu had (I don't know if it is still running) until a year ago a show on TVR2: Spectacolul Lumii. A quite interesting travel show, not in the annoying style of those Discovery Channel usually broadcasts. I really liked it. |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 18, 2004 09:53 pm |
| Thank you Victor, it is the best shot so far btw - anyone watching TV2 to let us know if the show is still running ? |
| Posted by: Dénes December 18, 2004 10:58 pm | ||||
Yes, but that was his job, wasn't it? I was talking of ordinary citizens, who could travel abroad at leisure. And if he travelled more often than every second year, that the issue is even more fishy. Col. Dénes |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 19, 2004 07:03 am |
| Denes it was just a joke I couldn't help it :] besides, when him and the other one spokne on TV he clearly admited that romanians have to choose between two old comunists.But lets just stop to the joke and not enter the realm of politics... it sucks, it always did and it always will. |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 19, 2004 02:08 pm |
| Denes, you are my single hope left, do you have any clear photos of the IAR-81 cockpits including the lastest type of bore sight system used ( HUD head up dispaly) also could you locate the original painting of your Roumanian Air Force prime... book cover ? Thanks Alex |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 19, 2004 02:15 pm | ||
Mytzu Do you have a clear photo from all sides and the cockpit of the IL-2 Stormovik displayed at Museul Aviaziei Militare in Bucharest ? You can send it through normal email or post on here Thanks Alex |
| Posted by: Victor December 19, 2004 03:15 pm |
| It's not an Il-2, but an Il-10. For IAR-80 cockpit, try this older thread: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=510 |
| Posted by: alexkdl December 19, 2004 09:30 pm |
| Hello Victor Is it IL-10 indeed ( the photo bellow is an IL-10 captured by Americans during Korea ) was it operated by Forzele Aeriene Romane ? if yes during what era ? Many thanks for the IAR-80 cockpit, its rather equipped with advanced instruments....even HUD I guess IAR-81A and B may have an even more sophisticated cockpit? One thing I am impressed Victor. On the right side of the panel on top of the Rate of Climb or VSI ( Variometer ) there's an istrument which initially looked like a VOR receiver as a matter of fact is not is a DG ( directional gyro) though I dont get on why it would have a compass rose around the instrument.....I also was puzzled to notice that artificial horizon is missing or not properly installed at pilots line of sight. Any chance to get an IAR 81Aor B Cockpit photo ? Alex |
| Posted by: C-2 December 19, 2004 10:50 pm |
| A captured Il 2 . Can anyone tell what's up with the right wheel? Spare parts were non avilable or what? E.Hladiuk photo album. |
| Posted by: Iamandi December 20, 2004 06:50 am | ||
Manny thanks, Victor! From what i understand, it was a german train, and not a romanian one. You know when he arrived in Romania? And how manny "victoryes" was revendicated by the Catrepillar? Iama |
| Posted by: D13-th_Mytzu December 20, 2004 09:36 am |
| Alex we did take many pics of that IL-10 but I don't know if we also have with the cockpit.Right now I am in UK but I have uploaded some of the pics, I will give you the link via PM (however you might not find any cockpit pics). |
| Posted by: Carol I January 31, 2005 08:45 pm | ||
Ioan Grigorescu "Bine ati venit în infern!..." Nemira 1995 ISBN 973-9177-25-5 |
| Posted by: Taz1 August 08, 2013 07:58 pm |
| Regarding the AA train I some questions if somebody can answer me. Did the train has a standard steam locomotive or a diesel one ? Do he Have a photo with this train ? The picture hear present it is most probably from another AA train eqiped with much more heavy weapons ( seems like 105 mm ) Did we had evidence that flak train with 105mm or 128 mm were present in Ploiesti area in 1944 ( except the picture from this site ) or it is just a legend - the 128 mm cannons ? What hapend with this cannons after 23.08.1944 ? The AA train destroed by romanians ofter 23.08.1944 was the same from 1943- Tidal Wave operation ? Many thanks. |
| Posted by: Taz1 May 28, 2014 11:18 am |
| In the end it is not very possible that the famous Gerstemberg flak train to be just a regular german armor train something like that : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZjGjmLGGM0 It carried flak all so . |