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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The Interwar Period (1920-1940) > Political assassination attempts in Romania |
| Posted by: Carol I September 13, 2005 09:50 pm |
| I remember reading about a previously unknown (for me) political assassination in terrorist style taking place in inter-war Romania. It gave me the idea of a topic with a somewhat different flavour: Political assassination attempts in Romania. In the afternoon of 8 December 1920 a bomb had exploded in the University hall where the Romanian Senate held its sessions. The deflagration killed Bishop Dumitru Radu on the spot and severely wounded the President of the Senate, Gen. Coandă, the Minister of Justice, Dimitrie Greceanu, Senator Spirescu, Bishop Nifon and the Secretary of the Senate, Virgil Budescu. Dimitrie Greceanu and Spirescu died in hospital as a result of their wounds. The police inquiry showed that the terrorist act has been carried out by Max Goldstein, in complicity with Leon Lichtblau and Saul Ozias who helped him manufacture the bomb. It appeared that Goldstein has entered the building in the previous day and during the night has placed the bomb in a blind window behind the seat of the President of the Senate. The bomb has not been discovered at the routine security controls performed before the sessions of the Senate. The perpetrator, Max Goldstein, has left the country immediately after the terrorist act but has been arrested three months later when he re-entered Romania. He confessed that his actions were a result of Buharin and Zinoviev's order of 1919 to the Terrorist Section of the Komintern to assassinate the Romanian prime-minister, Gen. Alexandru Averescu. Source: Magazin istoric 6/2004. If you have further information about this and/or other similar acts, please post it here. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 13, 2005 10:18 pm |
| In 1918 Lenin has ordered the assassination of King Ferdinand. Simion Rosal has been designated for this mission but the army foiled the plot and arrested the perpetrator who was later executed. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 13, 2005 10:18 pm |
| In 1933 there has been an assassination attempt targeted at King Carol II during a stopover in Budapest en route to Warsaw. Any more details on this action? |
| Posted by: Carol I September 13, 2005 10:20 pm |
| On 29 December 1933, following a meeting at the Peleş Castle with King Carol II, prime-minister I. G. Duca has been attacked on the platform of Sinaia railway station by three legionaries (Constantinescu, Belimace and Caranica). The prime-minister has been shot five times in the back of the head by Niki Constantinescu. Duca's companion, Dr. Constantinescu, has been wounded. This is a relatively known act compared to the other ones presented above. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 13, 2005 10:21 pm |
| One of the officers who have helped King Carol II to return to Romania in 1930 has been persuaded by the members of the opposition that the King and his mistress, Elena Lupescu, were guilty of the poor situation in Romania. He has planned to assassinate them on 8 April 1934 by detonating a basket of grenades on their route to the Royal Palace. The plot was foiled and the conspirator has been arrested, tried and condemned to demotion and 10 years hard labour. Does anyone know the name of the officer? |
| Posted by: dragos03 September 14, 2005 10:32 am |
| His name was Victor Precup but the details of this plot are still a mistery. Precup said at the trial that he didn't want to assasinate the king. quite the opposite, he wanted to create a "junta" to overthrow the government and to give dictatorial powers to the Carol II. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge September 14, 2005 11:17 am |
| Hi Guys, The Romanian monarchy can't have been all bad if attempts were made on the life of its kings by both Communist Jews and anti-Semitic Guardists! If one is, as the saying goes, defined by one's enemies, then the Romanian monarchy comes out of this quite well! Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 03:47 pm | ||
Thank you for the update. Could you please fill in the bits that you have? |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 03:51 pm |
| To continue the series of assassination attempts, in the summer of 1936 there has been a poisoning attempt on the life of Nicolae Titulescu. For the next 5 years Titulescu has shown the signs of a gradual and chronic poisoning. He eventually died in 1941, aged 59. There have been many suspects for his poisoning, but the authors remained unknown. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 03:52 pm |
| Another legionary plot planned to assassinate King Carol II and his ministers present at the Epiphany celebrations on 6 January 1939. The secret agents arrested and killed the conspirators on 4 January. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 03:54 pm |
| Also in 1939, the NKVD agent Leonid Lututovici attempted to assassinate the chief of the Military Justice in Cernăuţi. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 03:56 pm |
| On 13 February 1939 there has been a plan to assassinate Armand Călinescu though the detonation of a bomb placed under a bridge on his usual route. The plot has been foiled. However, on 21 September 1939 the conspirators succeed. Armand Călinescu's car has been blocked close to his home and a legionary 'Death Squad' killed the prime minister with more than 20 shots. His driver was also killed. The bodyguard was wounded but managed to get away. Next day the police captured the nine assassins and executed them on the site of the assassination. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 14, 2005 04:03 pm |
| One further attempt on the life of Carol II has taken place in September 1940 when several shots have been fired at the train that took him out of Romania after the abdication. If I remember right the engineer of the train sensed somehow the danger and accelerated when entering Timişoara railway station thus diminishing the chances of the train to be hit. Again, the legionaries were supposed to be behind this act. |
| Posted by: udar September 16, 2005 02:57 pm |
| You forget about Nicolae Iorga and Virgil Madgearu,killed by the same legionary asassins,for political reasons,on 27 nov. 1940.It was some rumors that ones of legionares was soviet agents,or was adviced by german secret agencies. |
| Posted by: sid guttridge September 16, 2005 05:36 pm |
| Hi Carol I I seem to remember that Calinescu was assasinated by a bridge quite near the royal palace and that in the early 1990s a simple memorial was put up in a public garden beside the road. Is it still there? Cheers, Sid. |
| Posted by: Victor September 16, 2005 06:08 pm |
| Yes, it is still there and it has been improved last year (they added a bronze bas-relief of Armand Calinescu), when the park was completely redone. Only that it isn't near the Royal Palace, it is near the Cotroceni Palace. |
| Posted by: Carol I September 17, 2005 05:00 pm | ||
I did not forget about them, as I did not forget about the 65 dignitaries assassinated by legionaries in the Jilava prison during the previous night (26/27 November 1940). It has to be mentioned that all these assassinations have a particular characteristic in the fact that they took place at a time when political assassinations had almost become state policy. |
| Posted by: dragos03 October 12, 2005 10:25 pm |
| A photo from the trial of Victor Precup and his group, from "Realitatea Ilustrata. Imagini din 1934". The caption says that Precup "wanted to be the absolute ruler of Romania", without any other details. http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: dragos03 October 12, 2005 10:59 pm |
| Another interesting photo, from the same source. It is from the trial of Sylvester Matuschka, in Budapest. Matuschka blew up (in 1931) the rail lines before the Ostende-Bucharest Orient Express. 24 passengers died. The Hungarian government said the communists were behind this action and executed two leaders of the Hungarian communist party. Anybody knows if any Romanians were among the 24 victims? http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Dénes October 13, 2005 01:52 am |
| The mentioned terrorist act happened on the night of 13 Sept. 1931, at 0:20 a.m. The viaduct at Biatorbágy, Hungary, was blown up by a disgruntled Austrian merchant, Szilveszter Matuska, a former Communist and detective in the 1919 Hungarian Soviet Republic. 22 passengers of the Vienna Express were killed and 17 severely wounded. A letter left on the scene cast the blame on the Communists. However, it has been proven that it was Matuska who actually blew up the bridge, acting alone. Two Communists, Imre Sallai and Sándor Fürst, were executed in 1932, for unrelated charges. Initially, Matuska was sentenced to death in 1934, sentence commuted to life in prison. He escaped from his cell at Vác in late 1944, during the combats in the area and then disappeared. There is no clue of his fate. There was Hungarian-American-West German movie made in 1982 of this incident, called The Viaduct . Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Carol I October 13, 2005 06:45 am | ||
Dénes, do you happen to have some details about this attempt on the life of Carol II? |
| Posted by: dragos03 October 17, 2005 01:37 pm |
| I found new information about Victor Precup, a character much more interesting than i expected. Victor Precup (1889-1954) was a colonel in 1927, during the regency, when he was a supporter of "the closed subject" (a supporter of future king Carol II, who was then in exile because of the Elena Lupescu scandal). Precup was a member of the War Council (Consiliul de Razboi) and his vote was decisive in the trial of Mihail Manoilescu, who was pardoned (Manoilescu was trialed because he was acting like a courier, delivering letters from prince Carol to various Romanian political leaders). The coup attempt in 1934 seems to be motivated by Precup's dissatisfaction with the "reward" he got from Carol II after he became king (in 1930). The coup was organised in 1934, during the Easter celebration. The objectives of the coup are not clear, as the sources give different variants: - he wanted to kill the king (Florin Sperlea, "From the royal army to the popular army") - he wanted to kill Elena Lupescu and the "Camarilla", not the king (Petre Otu, "Marshall Averescu. The soldier, the politician, the legend", also in the memoirs of Constantin Argetoianu and Armand Calinescu) - he wanted to replace the king with Marshall Alexandru Averescu, as a military dictator (Petre Otu) - he wanted to be "the only, undisputed master of Romania" ("Realitatea Ilustrata. Images from 1934") - he wanted to create a group of officers loyal to Carol II and establish a royal dictatorship (Precup's own testimony at his trial) Anyway, he lost his grade and spent six years in prison (he was liberated on 11 September 1940). But the most interesting part of Precup's career is after 1944. On 12 April 1945 king Michael makes him a Brigade General and in May 1945 he is appointed chief of the new DSECP (The army department for political education and propaganda). Precup was now the most powerful man in Romania's army, the leader of all the political "commissars", a man who could send any general to prison for "political crimes". His department was responsible for the great purge of the army in the first years of the communist regime. He later became part of the purge himself but his case was special, as he was the only officer that resigned without being forced (in 1949) and was not prosecuted afterwards. But why was he appointed in such an important position? Florin Sperlea claims that he briefly met the communist leaders while they were all in the Doftana prison in 1940. But why didn't they appoint an old, trusted communist activist (like Valter Roman, Cambrea and others)? Why Precup? Is it possible (as some sources claim) that he was an old Soviet spy? Does that mean that the coup in 1934 was initiated by the Soviets? Does anybody have more information? |
| Posted by: Carol I October 17, 2005 05:50 pm | ||
Thanks Dragos for the update. Precup appears to have been quite a colourful character, but unless he confessed being a Soviet spy I am afraid that the confirmation from Russian sources of his affiliation or of the plan to assassinate King Carol II in 1934 will be "delayed". |
| Posted by: Victor October 25, 2005 01:32 pm | ||
Here it is, the new improved version of the monument:  |
| Posted by: Carol I October 28, 2005 08:57 pm |
| Some further details on Victor Precup and the assassination attempt of April 1934 as they are presented in http://www.punctecardinale.ro/nov_2004/nov_2004_5.html in Puncte cardinale: Armand Călinescu (himself the victim of a successful assassination attempt in 1939) wrote on 7 April 1934: "A military plot is discovered: colonel Precup, major Nicoară, several captains and lieutenants, in total 11 officers. A chest of explosives was sent from Cluj to Bucharest. The objective is yet unclear. Some speak about the intention to assassinate Mrs. Lupescu, others about a military dictatorship. The officers are arrested; they will be tried soon." Eugeniu Buhman, personal secretary of King Carol II: "In April was discovered a plot to overthrow Carol from the throne. As in the rest of the country, the growing dissatisfaction for the regime has spread into the army. Assuming to act in that moment for the salvation of the country, the old friend of Carol , Victor Precup, prepared a foolish plan through which he intended to take over the leadership of the government and to become a dictator. The plot contained the reservation of a hotel room on Calea Victoriei, in front of which the King and other members of the Royal Court had to pass on the Easter night towards the Metropolitanate. At the set moment - the signal being the shooting of a rocket - the plotters had to throw hand grenades through the hotel window towards the Royal procession. In the ensuing confusion the plotters had to rush into the street and order the gendarmes to seal the area. In the meantime, some of the conspirators had to take over the control of the Royal Palace and other government buildings in the centre of the city. (...) Fortunately for Carol the plot was foiled. A sergeant accidentally overheard the conspirators and reported to his superiors. When the officers had been arrested they were armed to their teeth. Shortly afterwards, Precup declared to the martial court that he acted from «patriotism» and that his main objective was not the overthrow of the King as it was the elimination of the influence of Lupescu." Colonel Precup and the weapons of the conspirators (from the article mentioned above).   |
| Posted by: Imperialist October 28, 2005 10:28 pm | ||
First one has to see if the appropriate term for the Precup plot in 1934 is "coup". I think its obvious that Realitatea Ilustrata's claim that Precup wanted to be "absolute ruler of Romania" is pretty propagandistic or silly in itself. Who was Precup at the time. Who knew Precup? What were his political connections? If a coup was the goal, more people had to be involved, not just 11 officers and some cases of explosives and guns. Regarding the interesting post-war developments you mentioned. The context of the 1934 Precup plot is important. In 1933 Liga National Corporatista is formed. In March 1934, the law authorising the government to institute the general or partial state of siege is passed. Calinescu in his journal, notes the persistence of rumours about a possible dictatorship. In this context, Precup's intention certainly found some appreciation at that time and probably even later (given the full realisation of those rumours and trends) among the communists. But also worth noting what followed Precup's failed attempt. On the same day (April 7th) the law for the defense of state order is issued, dissolving all political groups which threatened the state or social order through their ideology, propaganda or execution of their political programs. (much like the Reichstag fire, this Precup plot  ).The following July, the law of full powers (Legea Deplinelor Puteri) is issued. The Parliament gives up some of its prerogatives to the Government. We can say that 1934 was the year when Carol's dictatorship was being prepared. take care |
| Posted by: Carol I October 29, 2005 09:19 am | ||
Victor Precup was born on 3 April 1889 in Miercurea Sibiului. During WWI, he served in the Austro-Hungarian Army. On 14 November 1918 he was part of the delegation of the Romanian National Council together with prof. pr. Nicolae Bălan (a future metropolitan of the Romanian Orthodox Church) that travelled from Sibiu to Iaşi to discuss the situation in Transylvania with the Romanian Government. I. G. Duca (another victim of a successful assassination attempt in 1933) describes the encounter: "Finally the long-awaited delegation has arrived; it was made of the Sibiu teacher, Nicolae Bălan and a handsome aviation officer, Precup." A few days later, on 23 November 1918, Victor Precup (mentioned with the rank of captain) flew from Bacău to Blaj in a Farman 40 plane piloted by lieutenant Ştefan Niculescu, to deliver three letters (one from I. I. C. Brătianu and two from pr. Nicolae Bălan) to members of the Romanian National Council. In 1919, Victor Precup took part in the campaign of Romanian army against the army of Béla Kun. In 1927 he was part of the War Council that tried Mihail Manoilescu who brought several letters from Carol Caraiman (the future King Carol II) to the Romanian politicians. Victor Precup voted for the acquittal of Maniolescu. As supporters of the restoration of Carol to the throne of Romania, colonel Precup and major Nicoară (both on the list of conspirators of the 1934 plot) were the messengers who presented to Carol the conditions for his return set by the new Romanian prime minister Iuliu Maniu, one of them being the separation from Elena Lupescu. As Carol did not keep his promise for separation, only 4 years after the Restoration, Precup and the other officers decided that violence has to be employed for the removal of Elena Lupescu. |
| Posted by: dragos03 October 29, 2005 02:07 pm |
| Thanks Carol I, interesting info. Precup's story is very interesting, too bad we'll never find out the whole truth. When Precup stepped down in 1949, he was considered "not loyal to the regime". But who was he loyal to? The king? |
| Posted by: Imperialist October 29, 2005 02:26 pm | ||
Ironically, that label or accusation ("not loyal to the regime") is as reliable as the previous one ("absolute ruler of Romania"). We should take them with a grain of salt. take care |
| Posted by: Carol I October 29, 2005 05:06 pm | ||||||
You are welcome. It is something that I have managed to fish out recently.
I agree that it will be quite difficult, but let us hope that the story may be pieced together from any new piece of information we may stumble upon.
I am afraid that the accusation does not carry any particular weight other than being an indication that the accused has fallen into the disfavour of the regime. |
| Posted by: Carol I February 19, 2006 12:58 pm | ||
Colonel Precup appears to be wearing a decoration with a triangular-shaped ribbon, caracteristic to the Austrian and Serbian awards. Since he served in the Austro-Hungarian air force in WWI it is quite plausible that it was an Austrian award. Does anyone have details about it? |
| Posted by: Carol I February 20, 2006 11:43 am | ||
According to an http://www.itcnet.ro/history/archive/mi1998/current9/mi85.htm in Magazin istoric first initiative to raise a monument to Armand Călinescu dates to October 1939, but organisation problems and the evolution of internal and international events in the following years postponed it until 21 September 1991. |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 25, 2006 08:07 pm | ||
Goldstein also tried to assassinate Argetoianu, only a month before the Senate attack. An "IED" placed between Chitila and Ciocanesti train stations destroyed 50% of Argetoianu's minsterial train wagon: http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol_20413/atentatul_de_la_senatul_romaniei__o_piesa_in_dosarul_comunistilor.html |
| Posted by: Carol I March 08, 2006 05:04 pm |
| I think one should add here the politically-motivated assassination in 1938 of Corneliu Codreanu, the head of the legionary movement. At that time Corneliu Codreanu was serving a ten year prison sentence for treason. On the night of 29/30 November 1938, Corneliu Codreanu and 13 other condemned legionaries (the Nicadors who http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2450&view=findpost&p=38764 and the Decemvirs who assassinated Mihai Stelescu in 1936, a contender to the leadership of the legionary movement) were being transferred from Râmnicu Sărat to Bucharest. The official communiqué released on 30 November 1938 stated that the legionaries have been shot to death while attempting to escape. The 14 bodies have then been hurriedly buried in the Jilava prison. An inquiry made by the Legionary Police in the autumn of 1940 claimed that the 14 legionaries have in fact been strangled to death during the transfer. |
| Posted by: Carol I March 08, 2006 05:11 pm | ||||
During the night 26/27 November 1940, 64 former dignitaries of Carol II rule have been assassinated by legionaries in the Jilava prison. They have previously been arrested by the Legionary Police being accused that they have contributed to the death of Corneliu Codreanu and other members of the legionary movement during Carol II's reign. They were being held in the Jilava prison under legionary guard waiting to be indicted and sent to court. Since there has been more than two months since their arrest, among the legionaries it was rumoured that general Antonescu was waiting for finding the proper moment and the proper reason to release them. On the mentioned night a group of legionaries (not part of the prison guard) started to dig in the yard of the prison in the attempt to exhume the remains of Codreanu and the 13 others legionaries killed two years before. It was claimed that when reaching the remains of the 14 bodies, the legionaries have been shocked by the state in which they have found them (what could they have expected after two years of decay?) and out of frustration decided to seek revenge from the detainees who they considered responsible for the killings. They burst into the cells and assassinated the 64 detainees in a frenzy of shooting. Among the victims were former prime ministers, ministers, judges, leaders of the Romanian Secret Service and other military commanders. An incomplete list of the victims can be found http://pages.prodigy.net/nnita/executatii.html. The calls to the leadership of the legionary movement to condemn the assassinations and to punish the perpetrators have only been met by issuing excuses for the killings on the grounds that the detainees were guilty of similar deeds or that the action has been quite spontaneous. However, the rumours that the detainees were to be released and the fact that the diggers came armed for the dig seem to suggest a planned action. |
| Posted by: Carol I March 08, 2006 05:13 pm | ||||
Following the killing of the Jilava detainees, on the evening of 27 November 1940, two legionary teams have taken Nicolae Iorga and Virgil Madgearu from their homes and assassinated them. There are reports that the assassins have also desecrated the bodies of the two. In the attempt to exonerate the legionary movement from these killings it was suggested that the two teams were some sort of renegade legionaries escaped from central control, that they have been acting under the orders from the Soviets or that the deeds have been carried out by students failed at exams by the two professors. However it is quite significant that as with the Jilava assassinations, the leadership of the legionary movement failed to condemn the killings or punish the perpetrators. In fact many legionaries regarded Iorga as the moral author of and the instigator to the killing of Codreanu and complained for not including him among the Jilava detainees. In this light it becomes relatively unimportant who were the members of the death teams carrying the assassinations since they had the approval of the legionary leadership (at least). |
| Posted by: SiG June 08, 2006 08:38 pm |
| Today we comemorate 144 years since the assasination of Prime Minister Barbu Catargiu, the first Prime minister of unified Romania (17/29 jan. - 8/20 jun. 1862) - and the first political assasination in modern Romanian history. (Not a very good start for Romanian political life, IMHO). |
| Posted by: Carol I June 09, 2006 07:58 am | ||
On 8/20 June 1862 the Prime Minister Barbu Catargiu was shot twice at close range when departing from the Parliament. One of the bullets hit him in the back of the head and killed him. The perpetrator was never caught, although a person named Gheorghe Bogati was suspected of carrying out the deed. |
| Posted by: Florin June 16, 2006 03:10 am |
| My grandmother told me another one: Carol II was a notorious womanizer. He inspected highschools with girls (most of the highschools, in those days, were "girls only" or "boys only"), he spotted the prettiest girl, then his men kidnapped her. Once he kidnapped the daughter of a general. Well, the general was not pleased at all regarding the "honor" incurred to his daughter, so near countless witnesses, he aimed his pistol toward the king and fired, but the bullets missed Carol II. To cool off the scandal, Carol II made the general to be diplomat overseas, and sent his family, including the "honored" girl, as far from Romania as possible. |
| Posted by: Carol I June 16, 2006 07:49 am | ||
Would you please care to give the names of the people involved? The idea of this thread was to present the details of real (and verifiable) assassination attempts on Romanian political figures. In the present format your story seems unfortunately nothing else than hearsay and hence does not fit in here. |
| Posted by: Florin June 16, 2006 12:18 pm | ||
I cannot offer more details. Yes, it is a hearsay, as mentioned from the very beginning. Logically, such thing would be discovered somehow in the 43 years of Communist rule, and the Communists, especially under Ana Pauker, would not miss the chance to make it public. |
| Posted by: Carol I December 08, 2006 10:59 pm | ||||
Here is a reference to the post war activity of Precup, from http://www.jurnalul.ro/articol_65857/molotov_si_visinski__cetateni_de_onoare.html.
|
| Posted by: dragos03 January 03, 2007 02:05 pm |
| Some more about the Precup plot: it seems that he was not satisfied with the rewards he got after helping Carol II reclaim his throne. As a result, he revealed some information about the king's comeback to a foreign newspaper. This has tensioned his relations with the king even further, to the point when Precup had a violent dispute with Gen. Ilasievici, an important man in Carol II's entourage. Besides Precup, some other officers involved in the plot were Maj. Fleseriu, Cpt. Nicoara and Slt. Nastase. The Romanian Secret Service, led by Mihail Moruzov, was fully informed of the conspiracy from the start and arrested the plotters. This was a very important success for Moruzov's service, whose importance skyrocketed. The Secret Service started to get more funds and to report its findings directly to the king. The Precup affair was also a great failure for the Secret Service's domestic competitor, the Safety Police (Siguranta Statului). A very interesting information can be found in one of the confidential reports sent by Siguranta to Carol II, which mentions that even if Moruzov was very successful in preventing the conspiracy, "he has used NKVD double agents and information from them in an irresponsable and dangerous way". |
| Posted by: Dan Po March 05, 2007 01:11 pm | ||||
Anyway, this first political crime is still very unclear, and the instigations were stopped due the political reasons. for more details see Al Mihai Stoenescu "Istoria loviturilor de stat in Romania" vol 1. |
| Posted by: mateias December 14, 2007 04:18 pm |
| For Sid, Yes. It's closer to the University Municipal Hospital than the Cotroceni Palace (one of the Royal residences). |
| Posted by: mateias December 14, 2007 04:51 pm |
| As some of the forumists described deeds of legionary assasins, I wonder if someone found a picture of one of their victims: Manciu, liberal prefect of police in Iassy, shot in public by Corneliu Zelea-Codreanu on the steps of the Iassy Court of Justice. |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 21, 2009 12:28 am | ||
the police did not capture the "green shirts" responsable for the assasinations...like all the 3 "punishment squads" (not "death squads") they knew they were doing something imoral for mankind...but very moral and justified in the face of the romanian people. And so the Nicadorii, Decemvirii and Razbunatorii all confessesd to their crimes...to demonstrate they are not meare criminals...because meare criminals run away knowing what they did was wrong....but for the punishments squad the assasinations were necessary to the evolution and the well-being of the romanian people. While as the IORGA episode there is proof that the men responsable were KGB and more importantly did not confess to the crime like the other TRUE punishments squads. MANCIU, arrested and brutaly beat the legionaires a group of about 40 students in 1924 while their where building with their own funds in Falticeni a cultural home for students, they made their own bricks, harvested their own food...and while they were working a police squad lead by Manciu came to them and beat them, used offensive language and took them into custody ( not to mention that while doing so, a group of kids walked towards the students offering them water, they were also beat and took into custody) The accusation? treason...why? apparently they were a group of students uniting as one...and they feared they will destroy the country. To skip to the interresting part....at Corneliu Zelea Codreanu's trial he was charged with murder but he was not sentanced because he murdered in self-defence...read for yourselves all you need to know about legionary related killings => http://www.fgmanu.org/istorie/sa_nu_ucizi.htm I have a suggestion for you...before talking about something try documenting yourselves from the information written by the supporters of such a movement... try being objective when talking about history.....view the differents points of view...from the accused as well as the prosecutors. We cannot be sure as to which story is true...but at least we will know a few more details that might be important in formulating a proper opinion about a historical scene. Everybody knows what is written in history school books and books written by those who have no connection whatesoever with the movement....few had the chance of spending time and talking face to face with some of the original members such as Mircea Nicolau ( a legionary commander ) and the legionary senate. here's an excellent site where you can find the information from the legionary point of view www.fgmanu.org (it's written in romanian) ( "Fundatia George Manu" is the active, modern form of the original "Legiunea Arhanghelului Mihail" (The Archangel Michael Legion), NOT the organization: "Noua Dreapta" (New Right) ) The legionary movement is totally legal in romania, it's just that they are not allowed to use names such as "The Archangel Michael Legion" or "The Iron Guard" and forbbiden by law are also the uniforms consisting of green shirts with a diagonal belt. p.s. i know what i said might seem subjective, and it is but i just felt that certain aspects of what you said weren't exactly accurate. cheers |
| Posted by: dragos February 21, 2009 03:35 am |
| LupulDac, you are trying to bring forward an apologetic attitude to a heinous and murderous period of our country, for which there are no excuses, in any kind of light, such us collecting funds for "building up" the cultural level of the nation. Indeed, the youth were attracted into believing those things, because they were seeing good things happening, like doing voluntary jobs to do good for poor people. In fact, nothing had a real fundament, this was just a spectacle of the fascist movements all over the world to gain popularity. It's like today "Becali" building several houses for votes, when in fact it is needed a real economical program and policy to raise the country, program which the legionary movement was lacking. The fact that Carol II carried out a governmental policy of assassination does not excuse the policy of retaliation the legionary movement had carried. There could not have been an "evolution and well-being" with such kind of attitude. I can agree that it was a period of dictatorships all over the world and the things were not seen like now, but for someone today to claim that the legionary movement did good is beyond my understanding (having a political right affinity) |
| Posted by: MMM February 21, 2009 10:41 am |
| Oh, but they (the "legionari") had a potential in that era, and it seems their power of seduction waned, but not so much. I graduated the Iaşi "Al. I. Cuza" University, the Faculty of History, in 2000 and I can state for sure that among some of my fellow students (not many of them, anyway), the spirit of the "Captain" was still alive - and I'm not sure it was only terribilism or things alike. It seems that Zelea-Codreanu's ghost still haunts some people! And, dragoş, they were not so extreme-right as it would seem today, and neither were the Italian fascists, for that matter. From where I stand, the leftist movement is much more compromised by the so-called comunism/socialism experiments since 1917 than the right-wingers because of the inter-war period regimes. As off-topic as it is, no regime founded an assasination (political or otherwise) is not bound to last! As for the legionar assasination, should we look in the Bible (as they were sooooo religious...) to see the proverb "Live by the sword, die by the sword", or however should be translated "Cine scoate sabia, de sabie va pieri"? Should we? |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 21, 2009 11:36 am | ||
I disagree, it had a very strong fundament based on hatred for traitors, corrupt groups in control of politics (camarile) and the perceived mishandling/destruction of one's country. The big difference though is that back then the regular people had the ability to own fire arms. An eye for an eye. |
| Posted by: MMM February 21, 2009 12:00 pm |
| Imperialist, you say it was a movement based on hatred, right? So it was never-ever-ever going to be a "healthy" movement: let's suppose, for the sake of it, that such a movement obtained power and achieved its goals; what happens next? They were just mystic extremists, jew-haters and many others under a common hat  However, the political assasination has a very old tradition, being perhaps as old as civilization itself - we didn't invent the wheel! As for the arms possession isssue, that's another "ballgame" - look at the USA; some of them are't really happy with that, except the NRA fan(atic)s. I don't want to live in a state where the possession of guns is legal for every citizen, except when that state has a Justice worth its name and (why not?) the death penalty. My oppinion... |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 21, 2009 12:49 pm | ||
No, I said hatred towards traitors, corruption and mismanagement. Don't take it out of that context. They said very clearly what next - they would have steered Romania towards an alliance with Germany and Italy. |
| Posted by: MMM February 21, 2009 01:23 pm | ||
| Still is hatred, isn't it?!?! What happens after all the hatred
are dealt with? Who's next? The jews, the gypsies, the gays, the intellectuals, WHO? I never agreed w/ extremism in any of its forms. Here's a good joke: "Death to the extremists!"  |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 21, 2009 02:24 pm | ||||
You missed my point. Which was that these movements stick because people have real complaints against the things I mentioned. This is the glue that holds them together. Whether the movement chooses to target a certain group has to do with its ideological orientation. These kinds of movements do not want to deal with the traitors/corrupt in some chaotic and ineffective fashion. They want them dealt with, but preferrably in a legal way. That's why they take part in the electoral process. If they are violently targeted by the authorities that seek to eliminate them then things can escalate. |
| Posted by: dragos February 21, 2009 03:56 pm | ||||
I'm afraid once the thing escalate this way, they lose any kind of credibility in being capable to deal with the problems of the county (corruption, economical etc) in a legal and civilized way.
I was talking about a feasible governing program in the eventuality they are elected and comes to power. The hatred for corrupts and "traitors" alone does not make one automatically capable to rule a country. |
| Posted by: MMM February 21, 2009 05:05 pm |
Somehow, both dragoş and Imperialist are right. But the legionars' movement was condemned by history and this forum seems to allocate too much space to that. It seems there are too many nostalgic forumists in here - hopefully, not extremists, as well! I told you I had my share of extremists singing crappy songs like "Legiunea, căpitanul şi arhanghelii de fier" or whatever its name was wih every occasion the drank a glass too much (which was quite often, and maybe not a glass, but a bottle  ), so I'd like to focus more on political assasination than on Codreanu's past and present adepts. |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 02:54 pm | ||
"Indeed, the youth were attracted into believing those things, because they were seeing good things happening, like doing voluntary jobs to do good for poor people." and doing volontary work for people is a bad thing...ok...i get it, you are right let's all think of ourselves...the hell with the country, it's history, it's people...like who cares if politics and politicians, take advantage of the middle and lower classes...........here's a thought for you. In one of his books , Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, dissregarded politicianism saying it was easy to corupt, because politicians can easily be bought and have the power to step on the middle and lower classes without any justification or consent from anybody....he said and i quote and translate " We do not deny and will not deny the existance, purpose of material things in the world, but we will always deny the right of its absolute sovereignity". Capitanul better preached about camaradery and equality between people...higher than the likes of brotherhood...higher than the false,hypocritical masonic equality of france. About becalli...like i said before....politics...he is only right oriented as a political party, yet he has no connection whatsoever with the legionnary movement, and its beliefs...the legionnares don't and are not helping for votes...because the legionnary movement isn't a political party, it's a school of the mind, where you learn to become organized, love those around you, respect and honor your native land, history and people who fought for and protected this land. Not the demagogical people we see on TV every day...spreading false hope and lies, people die and have died in this country more because of lack of jobs given through coruption, people that literally have no right to finish a college because are not that well prepared rise to be "hot-shots" in society because they buy their status and education...and those who actually study hard and work for their education have no room left because of the corupt, dirty dogs that ......all this is worth way lot more than what the legionnares did and wanted to accomplish through their movement... About CAROL II...he was a meare pawn...most of the internal stuff was done by his ministers...he did not agree to such actions I'm not appolagizing for them...i just presented a piece of history other than what you learn in school...have you at least tried to read something they wrote, have you read anything from Corneliu Zelea Codreanu himself? Ion Mota? even the poetry of Radu Gyr and Mihai Eminescu (yes he was a legionnaire too...look it up if you don't believe me), Noica, Cioran ... now that's love for country and people...not property and money. Property and money isn't what this country needs, it needs a national identity...we are known all over the world for being thieves, that we run away from our country to work somwhere else....it's because we are still living in communism, nothing has changed...not even the freedom of speech , i know an honest working girl from a newspaper...that isn't allowed to write what she really thinks about certain things...her editor literally writes his own version so that it would sell to the naiv public, even though it's a bunch of lies........ I'm not starting a revolution just to be clear, i just agree with what Capitanul had to say. AND ONE MORE THING, STOP TALKING FROM HISTORY BOOKS YOU HAVE FROM SCHOOL...TRY READING FROM THE AUTHORS THAT LIVED IN THAT PERIOD...EVEN LITERATURE...IT WILL GIVE YOU A BETTER POINT OF VIEW |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 03:02 pm | ||
like i said...they know what they did wasn't bible friendly....that's why they confeced their crimes and if you had read anything from the site i linked you too...you'd see they found justification in the bible as well...because the bible and religion are what they are...written by man and bypasses can be made ... http://www.fgmanu.net/istorie.htm#Problema read everything written in this chapter here about the violences the legionnaires did...and maybe then we can talk at the same level...untill then don't talk about what you don't know |
| Posted by: Radub February 22, 2009 03:15 pm | ||
No, we are not know for that. Not by everyone. A certain part of society want to deptict Romanians as that, but the majority of the population do not see Romanians like that. I have been living abroad for many years. I know. The worrying thing is that the particular section of the society that denigrate the Romanians and demand "action" against them, do so from a position of, to quote you, "camaradery and equality between people, higher than the likes of brotherhood, a school of the mind, where you learn to become organized, love those around you, respect and honor your native land, history and people who fought for and protected this land, love for country and people, national identity" You see, the problem that most people have with this frame of mind is that although these may be "honourable" and "decent" ideals, they apply only to a selected few, an inner circle. If you are not one of "them", then you are beneth them and not worthy. If you were a Jew or a Gypsy you could not join the Legion. In fact, the Legion did a lot more to these people than just deny them access. This may be called, xenophobia, racism etc. These are the reasons why the Legion was regarded as a "failed" movement. They were a product of their times. Same happened in Germany, Italy, Hungary, etc. The concept was tried, it failed, and the world moved on. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM February 22, 2009 03:32 pm | ||
Jeeze! I'm dumbfounded! What's your level, then? What are your credentials? Plus, this forum IS made to discuss about things we don't know! Not for extremists! |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 03:47 pm | ||
first of all..."legiunea arhanghelului mihail" was NOT an extremist movement, they weren't set to pogrom jews and gypsies...all they wanted was that true romanian people had first option to everything concerning their country...like jobs, education, and many other things like that...if the foreigners don't like it...they can go back to where they came from, and work there and putting my fellow romanians on the street. true fact: each year, 3 romanian students can't go to college because 3 spots are reserved for gypsies....why do they have to be 3 special spots for them...if they learn as good and are able to go to college along side romanians without these 3 discriminatory spots...fine......the problem is....they can't and so end up to be our leaders and are intellectuals with minimum grades...i'm not the one discriminating...the ministry of education is discriminating against our own people. The legionnaires came to power in 14 September 1940 through the proclamation of the Nationalist-Legionaire State...and what happened then...did anything "hitleresc" happen? where there jews burnt and killed for no reason? ....you know what happened...the big self-promoted Marshal Ion Antonescu, betrayed them once he was powerful enough....why do i say betrayed because he needed them to get powerful because nobody else wanted to support him. The "green shirts" suffered a lot , from mockings, lies, betrayels all throughout their original history and i have nothing but respect for them for not giving up in what they believed in...shows that there was something there worth fighting for. And even though they killed a few people, if they hadn't those people would've killed them anyway themselves...because they where true not selfcentered and would have messed up their wealth and power... and oh no they wouldn't want that to happen , what about their lavish parties and propaganda with money stolen from the state funds. Let me ask you something why does a king need a castle? is it not for show? his whole leadearship skill are based on a bunch of bricks and mortar.........those castles were built from public funds...funds that could've helped improve the lifestyle in romania....*** Until some of you people are a bit open-minded and see what's around you and get your noses out of history books from school ...(which by the way should be subjcetive and have all the information necessary but don't) then maybe we can talk Traiasca Legiunea si Capitanul, Traiasca Romania Slanderous remarks deleted by admin |
| Posted by: MMM February 22, 2009 03:49 pm | ||
Trenul morţii? Pogromul de la Iaşi? Cel de la Dorohoi? Take some books, kid! THEN, get smarter! |
| Posted by: MMM February 22, 2009 04:03 pm | ||
Look who's the judge now... We probably don't deserve to live in the same country with you, either, you courageus little anonymous! Let alone exchange oppinions on this forum. |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 04:08 pm | ||||
it was a failed movement because it wasn't as propagandistic and as commercial as the other regims... they didn't want jews and gypsies in the movement because they don't have the same feel for the country , this land and it's people as the most of us do ( it's sad that many don't ).....and as well many romanians weren't allowed in because they were after personal gain from this...and this is not acceptable...the legionnaires didn't want money or wealth or properties...they just wanted our land to be our land and the people in it to respect and cherish it for what it is, for it's history, for the fact that the romanians used to be a strong, hardworking, intelligent people...that fact was destroyed by greedy politicians who raped the land and it's potential for personal gain...not thinking of the people that acctualy earnd the right to be there.......like in the 13th to 16th centuries some of the wealthiest people were the soldiers that fought to protect the land. That's what the legionnaire spirit is they want to be left alone in our own country with our own people... Stop judging them for what they did and think about what they wanted to do. |
| Posted by: Radub February 22, 2009 04:08 pm | ||
Say what? A few? One is too many!  Take that Bible that you claim the Legiohn followed and read the "Thou shalt not kill" bit. You said "legiunea arhanghelului mihail" was NOT an extremist movement, they weren't set to pogrom jews and gypsies...all they wanted was that true romanian people had first option to everything concerning their country...like jobs, education, and many other things like that...if the foreigners don't like it...they can go back to where they came from, and work there and putting my fellow romanians on the street. THAT IS EXTREMIST! Radu |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 04:14 pm | ||||
Read enough to know that it was Ion Antonescu who ordered the cleansing of Iasi...who was NOT, i repeat was NOT a legionnaire ... legionnaires wouldn't have pogromed the jews...they would have just kicked them out...you read a book and see that the legionnaires did not want to kill anybody... |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 04:21 pm | ||||
stop dramatizing...i'm just saying that you are judging from knowledge you have aquired that is not sufficient and accurate...you asked me what are my credentials...ia now writing a book about the legionnary movement......sources: everything you probably read ( or not...and your talking from what you heard from other people) , talked with some of the people in the actual Legionnary senate, read about 80 % of the legionnary written books, as well as some books written against said movement ( this is what i was talking about...looking at the situation from both sides.....not just reading one book about it and that's it i know everything it does not work that way...history lies, history invents.....i made this opinion on my own by reading the pros and cons.....you only read the cons ) these are my credentials on the subject at hand...what are yours? |
| Posted by: C-2 February 22, 2009 04:30 pm |
| LupulDac. I suggest you calm down with your opinions. You have to read more. And remember that this is not an extremist and xenofob forum. Stick to the rules and you'll be able to stick with us. |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 04:43 pm | ||
i have to read more about what? i'm calm...i know what i know and i gave all the proof and arguments necessary to respond to everything that was said, i don't agree to how some people react to the legionnary movement and so i responded trying to explain how they thought and why they did certain things i'm calm...i haven't used any offensive language as far as i know.... it's true i should've been a bit more objective...but that's the beauty of a forum. and i believe my xenophob beliefs were used as examples to statements, justifying what i said...the rest are transposed words from books which happen to identify with my own opinion. patriotism isn't the hate for other countries, it's the love for your own...that's what i believe and "preach"...if anything came out otherwise it wasn't entended. oh and one more thing i'm not looking here to make people believe in what i believe...i don't have to stick with you...these are not my posts' purposes ... you believe in what you want, i don't want to change that...i'm just saying some of you don't know the whole story to it |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 22, 2009 05:46 pm | ||
Extremist? Isn't that one of the main points of the idea of a Romanian national-state - a state made by and for Romanians? |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 22, 2009 05:56 pm | ||
Well I hope you don't include me in that category of adepts. To me the contemporary legionari looks more like a cult of Codreanu's image and teachings than a coherent and capable political movement. But I find it amusing that you call that extremism. What, a bunch of guys singing legionare songs over a pint of beer? Come on. I'd be more worried about being stabbed in the back in a night club or in some ally by the members of a gypsy clan than by sharing a pub with a bunch of legionari. |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 06:13 pm |
| true the legionnaires aren't a capable political movement...because they don't intend to be. There's nothing wrong in singing a few songs now and again...but those who did it in a bar don't fully respect the concept...those songs are for the ears of those who understand and trully feel the songs meaning.........those guys were just showing off and being jerks....i hate public display.....neo-legionnaires aren't show-offs...they're discreet, humble and don't rub it in other peoples faces...the guys that did that in a bar...being drunk ( legionnaires are against beeing drunk out of your wits because you might say things about the movement that other people might interpret that they are a group of drunken nazi-punks ...which is totally wrong.......if you see those guys again...tell them what i've just told you...you'll see they haven't the slightest ideea about being a true "green shirt". Now the thing about the Codreanu cult is like this... he is a spiritual leader.....a sort of i don't know...the dallai lama for legionnaires ( i know the comparrison is paradoxal but you know what i mean) ........ they respect the word and history of Codreanu.....and the older members are more than coherent i can tell you that much...what you saw were probably young students and fresh members who haven't had their legionnaire education, about the do's and dont's. I agree with you with the fact they are not a capable political movement...because they don't and won't have political programs for propaganda....they don't want to lead the country they just want good, organized, patriotic people to live in this country. |
| Posted by: Radub February 22, 2009 07:03 pm | ||
Oh yes it is. Very much so! I understand that by a Romanian National State you mean a state for ethnic Romanians only. However, Romania has a very large variety of minorities, some with significant populations. Many of these were born in Romania and are perfectly entitled to a Romanian passport even though they ethnically belong to a certain group such as Tatars, Turks, Jews, Hungarians, Gagauz, Roma Gypsy, Ukrainian, Russian, Moldovan, Armenian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Saxon, Schwabian, Slovak, and so on and so forth. And this is where the "extremist" bit comes in. A "Romania for Romanians only" means that these minorities need to be assimilated, expelled, or exteminated. All of these are crimes against humanity. It is very unlikely that these minorities will accept any of these options. So, what is the plan then? "Romania for Romanians only" is extremist! it is incitement to hatred. Such menatlity gave birth to pogroms, concentration/extermination, ethnic cleansing etc. in other places. Embrace multiculturalism. It looks better than pig-headed nationalism.  Radu |
| Posted by: MMM February 22, 2009 07:15 pm | ||
But, Imperialist, they NEVER were such thing, neither in their glory years til '38 or the four months of 40-41! And I do NOT worry, unless it's about the image projected outside. Remember we are already seen as thieves, violators etc plus the fact that at the Holocaust Museum, we're in a quite grim light (so to say). I wasn't scared of them - after all, they were my fellow students and I wasn't jew (neither perceived as one )) |
| Posted by: Imperialist February 22, 2009 07:28 pm | ||
Well you misunderstood me then. LupulDac did not say Romania for Romanians only. Neither did I. He talked about Romanians having the first options in their own country. He did not say the only options or the entire options. At least that's what I understood and agreed with. The best way to embrace multiculturalism is by protecting and cherishing your own culture. What is pig-headed nationalism?  |
| Posted by: dragos February 22, 2009 08:29 pm | ||||||||||||||||||||
LupulDac, I suppose you didn't bother to read the forum rules or you think they are trivial and on the Internet you are free to say everything you want.
I won't ban you now, although I suppose I will do it in the future in the eventuality you will have a reckless urge to post on this forum. I'm not gonna start a debate with you on what xenophobic, hateful or slanderous remarks mean because here is not a place for small drama.
Not that I have a major interest in economics but you must be really naive to think that the problems of a country can be solved with voluntary jobs. On the other hand, doing publicized voluntary jobs are a very effective way to gain attention and popularity.
Unfortunately, if you haven't realized it by now, some of the greatest tragedies in history were committed on the basis of such "school of mind", which, as history shows, leads to nothing but brainwash and turning people into order-obeying machines.
Do you mean Carol II did not agree with actions against the Legionary Movement or what?
Have you read Utopia by Thomas Morus? Care to comment about it? And about Mihai Eminescu as being a legionnaire, he was nationalist, but there was not a legionnaire movement concept at that time. I don't know what crap I have to read in order to find out that Eminescu was a legionnaire, but the Nazis dig out some ancient stones and claimed they have found evidence the Arian race was destined to lead the world. This is just an ordinary manipulation of history.
You are completely wrong, even if it is cool to think you are not.
In theory the legion was not an extremist movement, but in practice it was very much so. So are you saying that not all of the Romanian citizens had equal options in the country? Should Romania's other ethnics be second class citizens, and Romanian ethnics should have the first option? Are you suggesting that the multicultural and multi-ethnic nations such as United Kingdom are not an example of civilization (which by the way, learned the hard way not to treat his own people as second class citizens many decades before the "great" concept of the Romanian legionnaire movement to arise)?
Wrong, Ion Antonescu did not need the Legionary Movement to gain power, he was entitled with those powers by Carol II at the time of his abdication.
Please tell us what lavish parties and which money Armand Calinescu stole from the state funds? His egocentricity had allowed the Polish government and army seek refuge in Romania, for the discontent of the Germany. A Germany who sponsored his assassination. So much about self interests!
Have you been living under a rock until yesterday? |
| Posted by: LupulDac February 22, 2009 09:07 pm |
| i'm going to stop posting in this topic for obvious reasons...any other thing you are interested in please PM me...we'll talk there...thank you |
| Posted by: Victor March 04, 2009 12:30 pm |
| Many posts were moved to the General Discussio Forum. Get back to the orginal topic. |
| Posted by: MMM March 04, 2009 02:47 pm |
| Thanks, Victor! Let's get back to political assasinations, then! I believe the last "political assasination" was that of Lucreţiu Pătrăşcanu, though it was much like an execution - so there were political assasinations after 1945 as well! |
| Posted by: bansaraba March 04, 2009 04:24 pm |
| And Chivu Stoica too. His "suicide" story is very questionable. |
| Posted by: MMM March 04, 2009 04:49 pm |
| Nevertheless, questionable. Do you know of any new researches/writings about it? Except Tismăneanu and memories of such as Brucan and others... |
| Posted by: guina March 04, 2009 08:06 pm |
| If you got to Patrascanu dont forget St.Foris executed by Pantiusa.On the same line,indirect killing of most of romanian elite in comunist extermination prisons,which afected our country infinitely more then "alde" Patrascanu,Chivu,etc.Those,at least,knew very well what game they were playng and got what they preachd.No spare tears ! |
| Posted by: MMM March 04, 2009 08:12 pm |
| What tears? I didn't mention Foriş because that happened in 1944, before the communist rule. What happened in prisons was extermination, not assasination. |