I also like folk songs from Vlachs/Wallachians/Romanians in Serbia:
http://youtu.be/t4PD1avRKTI
http://youtu.be/oTnlpBmxH9M
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Ancient, Medieval and Modern History > Wallachians in Slovakia |
| Posted by: 21 inf July 30, 2012 04:34 pm |
| Slovakians claims that wallachians established themselfs masivelly in their teritory in mid Middle Ages, as sheperds and partially due to Turkish attacks, contributing greatly to Slovak ethnogenesis. Here is a wallachian traditionally dance from Slovakia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnYUe1vVDZg (they call wallachians valasski). Here are some info about wallachians in Slovakia and region http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravian_Wallachia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala%C5%A1ka http://www.sazp.sk/parabow/parabow2/forest/wallach.html I wonder why in Romanian history we didnt learned about this things... |
| Posted by: Imperialist July 30, 2012 05:05 pm |
| Unfortunately they were ethnic cleansed or assimilated by force. I also like folk songs from Vlachs/Wallachians/Romanians in Serbia: http://youtu.be/t4PD1avRKTI http://youtu.be/oTnlpBmxH9M |
| Posted by: 21 inf July 30, 2012 05:28 pm |
| As far as I know from discussions with Slovaks, the Wallachians and nowadays Romanians are regarded with high respect and not at all as asimilated, but as ones who contributed to their culture. I even met Slovakians proud that they probably descend from Wallachians, as they said with their own words. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS July 30, 2012 07:47 pm |
| Thanks 21inf, this is quite a novelty for me! If on the Balkan Romanians (Vlachs) I have read a book called "Tragedia Romanilor de peste hotare" written by Cristea Sandu Timoc, Editura Astra Romana, Timisoara 1996, on the Slovak Vlachs (Romanians) I read but very little! In the book I mentioned is written that Czech and Slovak historiography calls them "Vlaska etnanin" as romanian origin shepards. It says that some romanian soldiers returning from Czechoslovakia after WWII spoke about shepherds they meet there, who spoke an archaic Romanian language, which they understood quite well! It is written that profesor D. Pop Martian created a sensation in Buciumul magazine nr. 281 from 10/22.09.1876 when announcing the find of aprox. 60.000 romanians in Moravia. At that time were also published other materials in Romania and Austro-Hungaria (Transilvania, Slovakia, Czech territories). President of the asociation Matica Slovanska mr. Josef Markus who visit Timisoara in 1995 declared that the slovaks have inherited from the romanian shapards living there in the middle ages "character strength, volcanic temper and very good occupations for the mountain people"! An interesting and very good theme for discussion which I appreciate! |
| Posted by: 21 inf July 30, 2012 08:17 pm |
| Slovaks says that the wallachians which migrated as sheperds in Slovakia in Middle Ages (in about 16 and 17 century), populated the high mountains in Slovakia, above the line of "foioase" trees, that means above a medium altitude of 650 meters. This drove me to the conclusion that the wallachians who went there were from high mountains of nowaday Romania. What I cant explain is why that particular medieval romanians migrated because of the Turkish attacks, as I dont have knowledge that Turks were able to attack the high mountains (for at least some reasons: rough terrain, little to pillage, scarce population in the mountains). |
| Posted by: Imperialist July 30, 2012 08:55 pm | ||||
From the Wiki link you posted:
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| Posted by: 21 inf July 31, 2012 06:13 am |
| Doesnt seem to me as a ethnic cleansing, as Wallachians fight against Habsburgs and were not killed based on their ethnicity, but on their rebellion. It could happend to any nationality raising against Habsburgs. Proof of forced asimilation was not provided. Some more on the subject of a Wallachia in Slovakia http://www.mestovsetin.cz/EN/vismo/dokumenty2.asp?id_org=100315&id=1001&p1=60 |
| Posted by: Imperialist July 31, 2012 10:40 am | ||
So how many Vlachs are there in Slovakia today if they weren't ethnic cleansed or assimilated? |
| Posted by: JiriTintera July 31, 2012 12:57 pm |
| Dear Sirs, Carpathian origin of Moravian Wallachia disappeared during the Thirty Years War, as most "ethnically indigenous Wallachians" fell in the battles against Habsburg troops. From the ethnic point of view it was a Ruthenian-Romanian population. In the original written records is called: Coloni Valach seu Ruthéni (Wallachians i.e. Ruthenians). Depopulated the Earth Czech crown was re-colonized by non-Wallachian population. P. S. City Vsetin not in Slovak Republic, but in Moravia! In the Czech language, the term "valach" also refers gelding horse. Sorry, but I do not know English, so I used an electronic translator. Source http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala%C5%A1sko - only in Czech language http://kcjl.upol.cz/dialektologie/kap3_nareci_morava.pdf - only in Czech language http://www.hromada.webz.cz/valassko.htm - only in Czech language |
| Posted by: ANDREAS July 31, 2012 09:27 pm | ||
JiriTintera, without having studied the issue in detail I think we can not exclude the possibility that some Wallachian survived in some less accessible areas from Vsetín (at least looking at the map the Vsetin area looks rugged and not very accessible) and they have continued to influence somehow the local population (as they are mentioned and remembered even in XX century) until recently! I believe they can be a connection between the czech and romanian nations and help us all to better know our past! |
| Posted by: JiriTintera August 01, 2012 09:13 am |
| Dear Andreas, Moravia is reportedly taking off the old research Wallachian families can provide more information Radim Vašut (radim.vasut@upol.cz). P. S. My surname - Tintěra - in the Wallachian dialect means "little woman", and at the opposite end of the Czech Republic of South Bohemia, to label this puppets, or small people. P. P. S. Transilvanian Wallach: Matthias I. Hunyadi was king of Hungary and son in law of Czech King George of Podebrady. Reference http://genealogy.vasut.eu/genealogy/zpravodaj-vasut-valasskerody.pdf http://genebaze.cz/gap.html |
| Posted by: 21 inf August 01, 2012 10:29 am |
| I looked at the words linked with sheperds in slovakian and they are of Romanian origin. |
| Posted by: Dénes August 02, 2012 08:21 am |
| Vlachs were not necessarily Rumanians. Most were, but not all. Vlachs and Wallachians are also not necessarily identical. For the definition of Vlach, see Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/631511/Vlach Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: 21 inf August 02, 2012 04:23 pm |
| Well, I readed what it is said at the above posted link and I say we have to forgive the author for what he wrote there. First of all, Vlah and Wallach is the same, depend on what language one speaks. Second, it is an exonim, which I am surprised that the author didnt mentioned. Anyway, there are no references for what is stated on that site, so it might be as well be written when the author was sitting in front of a cold beer. I am surprised to see that author sustain the theory of romanian ethnogenesis south of Danube and resettlement back north of it, when all the proofs are that the romanian element stayed in the aproximative area of what is now Romania. But the "grădina Domnului" is big... The proofs of continuity are too much to be reminded here and anyway, the subject here is wallachians in Slovakia. Anyway, not even today, a part of aromâni, machedoni, even from Romania, or vlahs from Serbia, doesnt like to be called "Romanians". After all, is their own choice and if they want to isolate themselfs, is their problem. If they are so limited that they didnt figured out that one can call himself moldovean, dobrogean, ardelean, moţ, oşean, momârlan and still be romanian, is their problem. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS August 02, 2012 06:46 pm |
| In this case of the Romanians (Wallachians) from Moravia and Slovakia the definition (so wrong as Encyclopedia Britannica understand it) which is given to Vlachs is inapplicable anyway! I say this because from direct references found on the Web (czech sites who must know the situation better than the British author) and from the book I quoted, the link between Vlachs and Romanians is direct and out of any doubt! In the same book I found another page dedicated to Romanians from Moravia where it is said that there were several groups -an older one mentioned in several sources from XII century as Vlachs over who will come later the "Potpolianii" or "Getvancii" -mountain people came from Wallachia. In Slovakia the popular tradition knows them as wallachs who dealt with shepherding but also outlawry, and they were terrible in battles. In Moravia the popular tradition knows them as shepherds and are even now kept in memory by some tools hatchet: hatchet, sheep hair clippers cutters, a.o. and also dances and popular costumes! (translation in the book quoted) |
| Posted by: 21 inf August 03, 2012 05:20 am |
| A rather amusing situation I experienced in June this year. I was in France and speaking with my driver in English, I was amazed when he asked me, in a quite bad Romanian: "Aveţi vară în România?" I asked him how did he learned Romanian and he said he is vlah from Serbia. "Ah, so you are Romanian" I said to him. "No", the answer came, "I am a Vlah and I dont like to be called Romanian. I had nothing in common with Romanians". Knowing a little bit about vlah dialect, I tried to speak little in oficial Romanian language and accent to him, but he claimed he didnt understand. The situation changed when I spoke to him with romanian transylvanian accent: he didnt understand the word "degete" (fingers), but he understand the word "jejichie", which is the romanian transylvanian peasant pronounciation, which is almost similar as vlah pronounce it "joajichie". Some other words had the same effect  Anyway, I am interested to know more about romanians (wallachians) in Slovakia and Czech Republic in Middle Ages. |
| Posted by: muggs August 03, 2012 06:48 am |
| Quite an interesting subject, thanks for all the links. |
| Posted by: Radub August 03, 2012 09:17 am |
| You must NOT forget that "borders", "passports", "visas", "travel denial" are relatively new concepts. Less than 150 years ago, people were able to move with more ease and populations shifted across Europe. "Borders" as we understand them today are also relatively new concepts and even they changed many many times in the last 100 years. People found themselves belonging to different "countries" without moving home. See this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/16/europe-history-time-lapse_n_1520724.html Radu |
| Posted by: 21 inf August 03, 2012 10:19 am |
| Probably back in Middle Age were not the same borders as we know today, but there were strict laws regarding people movements. LE: the laws in Middle Age included what was called in romanian language "legarea de pământ" regarding serfs (iobagi). Passports existed also in late Middle Age. One could not pass a border legally if he didnt had a passport aproved by authorities. Also, property was very well defined with documents and even sheperds had to deal every year with the owners of the mountains in order to go there with their herds. And, with all the respect, the link posted above was made at least by a "sfertodoct" (I dont know the term in english). |
| Posted by: Radub August 04, 2012 10:17 am |
| Yet, people moved. Apparently, Wallachians even managed to move as far as Slovakia. Radu |