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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Ancient, Medieval and Modern History > Independence War 1877-1878|
|Posted by: johnny_bi June 03, 2005 10:42 am|
| Does someone have extensive information on the military campaign in Bulgaria during the russian-romanian-turkish war ? Strategy, tactics, etc?
I saw the interesting site Denes had indicated but there was little information about the Romanian involvement.
Actually all one could find is that Russia helped "gratuitously" the Romanian governement and, within the chapter "Start and course of the war" there is only one sentence regarding Romania: "Russia was joined by Romania with 40,000-strong army".
|Posted by: Iamandi June 03, 2005 10:59 am|
| I have a book with history of romanian cavalry, were i found some information. I will look, and maybe i scan if i found free time.
|Posted by: Carol I June 03, 2005 05:26 pm|
| Dénes has also started this topic: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=996.
The article mentioned gives some information, although very brief, about the organisation of the Romanian army and its operations during the war.
|Posted by: johnny_bi June 03, 2005 11:30 pm|
| I didn't see the thread... Thanks for the article ...
In my post above I reffered to an other article presented by Denes. Anyway , this article is also too short and it does not contain too much information...
I would like to find out some info regarding the whole campaign and the description of battles, etc...
|Posted by: Carol I June 04, 2005 08:46 am|
| Here is another article describing the operations of the 1877-1878 war largely from a Russian perspective. It however mentions the Romanian involvement.
|Posted by: Carol I June 04, 2005 08:54 am|
|And another one - http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html - about the fights at Plevna (nowadays Pleven).|
|Posted by: Carol I June 04, 2005 08:59 am|
| Here is an image of the ossuary raised at Plevna (nowadays Pleven in Bulgaria) for the Russian and Romanian soldiers fallen during the 1877-1878 War.
|Posted by: Carol I June 04, 2005 09:06 am|
| Also from the same source, an image of the building housing a panorama which intends to recreate the atmosphere of the fights at Plevna. I have not seen the panorama, but as it was painted by 11 Russian and 2 Bulgarian artists I presume that it presents mainly the Russian point of view.
|Posted by: Carol I June 04, 2005 03:34 pm|
| Doing some research for this topic I have stumbled upon the homepage of the http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/index.html in Plevna. It contains interesting descriptions of the various memorials of the 1877-1878 War. Among them there are several that relate to the Romanian participation to the war.
Besides the http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/02_mauzoleum.html mentioned above, there is also the http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/07_mavzolej.html for the Romanian soldiers fallen during the fights at Griviţa.
And in the same complex there is also a http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/05_karol.html which houses a collection of Romanian uniforms from the war.
|Posted by: johnny_bi June 06, 2005 05:17 pm|
|Thank you very much Carol I for the very interesting links you gave.|
|Posted by: Carol I June 07, 2005 06:16 pm|
| You are welcome.
I hope you have also noticed the link to http://www.xenophongi.org/rushistory/battles/plevna2.htm from the article on the http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/russoturk.htm. It contains a map with the disposition of the Romanian forces around the Griviţa redoubts.
|Posted by: Mareşal Boboescu June 08, 2005 06:32 pm|
|For a complete study of the matter I strongly recomend "Armata română în Războiul de Independenţă 1877-1878" written by Cornel I. Scarfeş & Co. as the second book in Tradiţii militare Collection.|
|Posted by: Carol I June 08, 2005 08:42 pm|
|Posted by: Imperialist June 18, 2005 08:59 am|
I'm curious, are there tours organised in Romania to these sites specially to pay homage at these monuments? Are there annually held ceremonies there, commemorations? Or are they simply forgotten over the border.
|Posted by: Alexandru H. June 18, 2005 09:22 am|
|I think that only Bulgarians honour them...|
|Posted by: Carol I June 18, 2005 09:55 am|
Unfortunately, I do not have knowledge of any Romanian tours or commemorations in Bulgaria. As for the very existence of the monuments, I have found out about them quite recently. I remember that a few years ago I have seen an image of an old postcard with the Romanian chapel at Griviţa and I wondered if it still exists. So I was quite glad to see on the homepage http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/index.html that it still exists and that a memorial park has been arranged around it.
|Posted by: Carol I July 01, 2005 08:48 pm|
You may take a look at http://www.actrus.ro/biblioteca/cursuri/istorie/babos_2/capitol_5.html of the book Istoria Artei Militare http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2252&view=findpost&p=35215. The text seems to be available only in Romanian.
|Posted by: Carol I October 29, 2005 05:27 pm|
Here is a chronolgy of the Romanian participation to the 1877-1878 war:
4 April 1877
In Bucharest is signed a Romanian-Russian convention through which Russia agreed to recognise the political rights of the Romanian state as they resulted from the existing laws and treaties and to withhold and defend the territorial integrity of Romania.
12 April 1877
Russia declared war to the Ottoman Empire.
26 April 1877
Following provocations, the Romanian batteries open fire on the Ottoman artillery across the Danube.
29 April 1877
The Assembly declared the state of war between Romania and the Ottoman Empire.
30 April 1877
The Senate passes a similar motion regarding the state of war between Romania and the Ottoman Empire.
8 May 1877
The mobilisation of the Romanian Army is completed. It was 100,000 strong out of which 58,700 were part of the operational army.
9 May 1877
The Parliament proclaimed the state independence of Romania.
The Assembly passes the law instituting the Order of the Star of Romania.
10 May 1877
Prince Carol sanctioned the state independence and the law instituting the Order of the Star of Romania.
8 July 1877
The Russian army began the attack on Plevna.
19 July 1877
Faced with difficulties, the Russian Grand Duke Nicholas sent a telegram to Prince Carol asking for the intervention of the Romanian Army.
20 July 1877
The 4th Romanian Division crossed the Danube and assumed fighting positions at Nicopole.
16 August 1877
At Gorni-Studen takes place a meeting between Prince Carol, the commander of the Romanian Army, and Grand Duke Nicholas, the commander of the Russian troops. It was agreed that the army operating against Plevna to be under the command of Prince Carol, assisted by the Romanian general Alexandru Cernat and the Russian general Zotov.
20 August 1877
The Romanian divisions crossed the Danube on a pontoon bridge built at Siliştioara, near Corabia.
27 August 1877
The first attack of the Romanian troops at Plevna was carried out by the 13th Dorobanţi Regiment that managed to conquest a hill covering the Griviţa fortifications.
30 August 1877
At 15.00 took place an attack on the Griviţa redoubt known as "the third Griviţa battle".
5-6 September 1877
Prince Carol I and gen. Alexandru Cernat were presented with the Russian Order of St George (third and fourth class, respectively).
6 September 1877
The attack of the Romanian troops on the Griviţa 2 redoubt is repelled by the Ottomans.
7 October 1877
A new attack on Griviţa 2 took place, but the enemy remained on positions.
7-9 November 1877
Several fights took place for the conquest of the Rahova fortifications, a key element in the defence of the Ottoman troops in Bulgaria.
28 November 1877
The fall of Plevna. At noon, Osman Pasha, wounded, messages to the Romanian colonel Mihail Cherchez, his decision to capitulate. 2,138 officers, 43,200 troops, 77 guns and many other weapons were captured.
1 December 1877
The first convoy of Ottoman prisoners (about 4,000) departs from Plevna to Bucharest.
5 December 1877
The Romanian Army was regrouped on new positions.
12 January 1878
The Romanian troops of the 4th and 6th Line Regiments launch a surprise attack and conquer Smârdan, the most important fortification of the defence of Vidin.
19 January 1878
The armistice between Russia and the Ottoman Empire is signed. The Romanian representative was not accepted to take part in the negotiations or at the signing of the document in spite of the fact that the Romanian Army was desperately called by the Russian commander in July 1877 and then participated actively to the fights in Bulgaria.
12-13 February 1878
According to the clauses of the armistice treaty, Romanian troops occupied Vidin and Belogradgik.
19 February 1878
The peace treaty between Russia and the Ottoman Empire is signed at San Stefano without the participation of other interested states, including Romania. The treaty recognised the independence of Romania, Serbia and Montenegro and the autonomy of Bulgaria.
1 June - 1 July 1878
A peace congress took place in Berlin with the participation of Russia, Turkey, Austro-Hungary, Italy, France, England and Germany. Romania was not invited and represented under the pretext that her independence was not recognised. Only a Romanian delegation led by Ion C. Brătianu has presented the Romanian cause.
1 July 1878
The peace treaty is signed by the participants of the Berlin Congress. It recognised the independence of Romania and the Romanian authority over the Dobrogea, Danube Delta and the Island of Serpents in the Black Sea. At the same time, the treaty stipulated the Russian occupation of the new counties in the south of Bessarabia (Cahul, Bolgrad and Ismail) that were previously restored to Moldova in 1856. They will become again part of Romania only in 1918.
29 July 1878
According to report no. 458 of the War Minister (General Alexandru Cernat) and the diary of the Council of Ministers no. 1 of 27 July, the return of the Romanian Army to peacetime activities is decreed from 5 August 1878.
|Posted by: Carol I November 24, 2005 10:08 pm|
| Fragment from an old movie about the Independence War (from the National Centre for Cinematography):
http://www.cncinema.abt.ro/Files/Movies/fls-269.avi (ca. 25 MB)
|Posted by: Agarici November 29, 2005 09:42 pm|
The original text of the telegram (still existent in the Romanian archives), sent on 19/31 July 1877 by the Grand Duke Nicholas to Prince Charles:
“19/7 1877. Urgent. Tirnovo. Prince Charles de Roumanie à l’endroit où se trouvera. Les Turcs, ayant amassé les plus grandes masses a Plevna, nous abîment. Prie de faire fusion, démonstration et, si possible, passage du Danube que tu désires faire, entre Djoula [Jiul] et Corabia. Cette demonstration est indispensable pour faciliter mes mouvements, Nicolas” - National Archives, Bucharest, Fund Carol I – personals, folder V-I-103, apud Constantin Bacalbaşa, Bucureştii de altadată, edited by Aristiţa and Tiberiu Avramescu, Bucharest, Editura Eminescu, 1987, vol. 1 (1871-1877), p. 253
An official Romanian version - from Milea, Pascu, Ceauşescu (ed.) Istoria militară a poporului Român, Bucharest, Editura Militară, 1987, vol. IV, p. 674:
“Prinţului Carol al României, în locul unde se află Cartierul general român. Turcii, adunând cele mai mari mase de trupe la Plevna, ne zdrobesc. Rog să faci fusiune, demonstraţiune şi, dacă se poate, să treci Dunărea cu armata, după cum doreşti. Între Jiu şi Corabia demonstraţiunea aceasta este neapărat necesară pentru înlesnirea miscărilor mele. Nicolae”
“19/7 1877. Urgent. To prince Charles of Romania, in the place where the Romanian HQ is. The Turks, gathering massive forces at Plevna, are crushing us. Please make a demonstration of force, a merging of our troops and if possible the crossing of Danube as you wish. This demonstration of force is indispensable between the river Jiu and Corabia, in order to facilitate my movements. Nicholas"
|Posted by: Agarici November 29, 2005 10:47 pm|
On 26 April/8 May, the first shot was fired from Calafat by the cannon number 1 from the battery number 2, 1st Artillery regiment, cannon commanded by the 2nd lieutenant Constantin Vasiliu. The batteries number 1 and 6 from the same regiment quickly joined the gun fire. Until the end of the day the cannons from the three batteries fired more than 130 salvoes on the town of Vidin - Milea, Pascu, Ceauşescu (ed.) Istoria militară a poporului Român, Bucharest, Editura Militară, 1987, vol. IV, p. 634
From that moment on, Romania was de facto at war with the Ottoman Empire.
|Posted by: Agarici November 30, 2005 08:35 am|
|Since the Independence War (Russian-Romanian-Turkish War, 1877-1878) seems to me one of the most interesting developement from the Romanian modern military history, I will try to make a few contributions to what has been said until now. I will also try to add some facts to the usefull chronology presented by Carol I.|
|Posted by: Agarici November 30, 2005 10:29 am|
| [QUOTECarol I,Oct 29 2005, 05:27 PM]
“Asta-i muzica ce-mi place.”
Sunday 15/27 May 1877. Prince Charles was inspecting the Romanian artillery positions at Calafat, when the Turkish artillery open fired and three shells exploded close to him; the prince calmly raised his kepi, saluting the Turkish artillery men. Advised by the ministry of war, gen. Cernat, to take cover, he answered “that’s the music/the sound I like”, continuing the inspection. After receiving gen. Cernat’s report on the event, the Council of Ministers proposed Prince Charles to be awarded with “Virtutea Militară” medal - Constantin Bacalbaşa, Bucureştii de altadată, edited by Aristiţa and Tiberiu Avramescu, Bucharest, Editura Eminescu, 1987, vol. 1 (1871-1877), p. 243.
On 20 August/1 September 1877, following the negotiations from 16/28 and 17/29 august between the Russian Emperor (Alexander II) and Prince Charles of Romania, the Russian Western Army, operating in the Plevna area, became the Russian-Romanian Western Army (generically known as Western Army), and is put under the command of Prince Charles, having as Chief of Staff the Russian general P. D. Zotov - Milea, Pascu, Ceauşescu (ed.) Istoria militară a poporului Român, Bucharest, Editura Militară, 1987, vol. IV, p. 675.
|Posted by: Carol I November 30, 2005 10:50 am|
Nice initiative, Agarici.
|Posted by: Agarici December 02, 2005 11:07 am|
During the initial stages of the war the Ottoman Danube monitors played an important role in bombarding the Northern bank of the Danube and in hampering the allies’ communications and supply routes. So, during the night of 13/25-14/26 Mai 1877 two torpedo boats launched an attack on two Turkish monitors stationed on the Măcin channel. One of them was the Russian “Xenia” torpedo boat and the other the Romanian “Rândunica” - renamed “Csarievici”/”Ţarievici” (launched in 1874, built in Great Britain), which, together with the rest of the Romanian Danube Flotilla was lend to the Russian Imperial Navy (”with the inventory”, together with their crews, at the begining of the war, to be returned at the end of the ostilities). Onboard of „Csarievici”/”Rândunica” was the Romanian major Ioan Murgescu (born at Buzău, 1846-1913), the deputy commander of the Romanian Flotilla. He was a Brest naval academy graduated and was detached to the Russian Danube Fleet Command; as an experienced Danube navigator, he was coopted to participate at this expedition. In that night ”Csarievici”/”Rândunica” managed to sink, with two torpedoes, the Ottoman monitor (armoured gunboat) ”Duba-Seifi”/”Hivizi-Rahman”. The ship, built at Bordeaux in 1868, was armed with four Krupp cannons and had a crew of 120 men an 12 officers. For his actions major Murgescu was awarded with the knight cross of the Russian ”Vladimir” order (with swords). After the war, he became commander of the Romanian Royal Navy (1888) and reached up to the rank of rear-admiral (and vice-adimiral, after retirement) - after Constantin Bacalbaşa, Bucureştii de altadată, edited by Aristiţa and Tiberiu Avramescu, Bucharest, Editura Eminescu, 1987, vol. 1 (1871-1877), p. 245
Note: both torpedo boats used ”torpile cu scondru” (any English translation availble?): the torpedoes were attach to the boats by some extensible rods (two by each ship) and were detonated by a pirotechnical charge at the contact with the enemy vessel (so they were not floating, launched torpedoes).
EDIT: According to Wikipedia, the English term is “spar torpedoes”:
"The first torpedoes driven at the target were spar torpedoes – the explosive device was on the end of a spar up to 40 feet long projecting forward under the water from the attacking vessel. When driven up against the enemy and detonated a hole would be caused below the water line. These devices were used in the American Civil War." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo
|Posted by: Imperialist December 02, 2005 01:55 pm|
Its very interesting, they used Whitehead torpedoes.
|Posted by: Agarici December 02, 2005 07:07 pm|
Actually they didn’t. Indeed, according to Wikipedia, the first recorded successful use of a Whitehead (floating, launched, self-propelled) torpedo was during the same Russian-Turkish War; in January 1877, a Russian torpedo boat sunk the Turkish steamer “Intibah” with a torpedo of that type. But neither was that vessel either one of those to which I was refering in my previous post, nor was “Rândunica” armed with Whitehead torpedoes.
Judging by the date when the action took place and also by other elements, I think “Intibah” was sunk in the Black Sea.
|Posted by: Imperialist December 02, 2005 07:52 pm|
Well, according to T.C. Vacarescu a Whitehead torpedo was used in the attack. And also according to him, besides Xenia and Randunica, Alaftchik and Ghighit (both russian) also took part in that attack.
|Posted by: Carol I December 05, 2005 06:07 pm|
|Posted by: Carol I December 06, 2005 11:49 am|
| Contramiral Ioan Murgescu
|Posted by: Agarici December 06, 2005 01:12 pm|
The sources I‘ve used put a different light on the things. And both sources use multiple references. Indeed, three Russian and one Romanian torpedo boats were involved in the attack against three Turkish monitors (retreated on the Măcin channel), which took place in the night of 13/25 towards 14/26 May 1877. Among these, two (“Csarievici”/”Rândunica” and “Xenia”) launched an attack on “Duba-Seifi” (“Hivizi Rahman”), which was sunk by “Csarievici”/”Rândunica” with two torpedoes.
Now if I tell you that I know for sure that “Rândunica” used spar torpedoes, I guess this won’t be good enough for you.
In Constantin Bacalbaşa, Bucureştii de altadată, edited by Aristiţa and Tiberiu Avramescu, Bucharest, Editura Eminescu, 1987, vol. 1, at page 245 there is a footnote (no. 75) saying that “rezultatul expediţiei nocturne a fost scufundarea - cu ajutorul a două torpile de şcondru - a canonierei cuirasate ”Duba-Seifi” (“Hivizi Rahman”), construită în anul 1868 la Bordeaux…” [“the result of the night expedition was the sinking - with two spar torpedoes - of the armored gunboat ”Duba-Seifi” (“Hivizi Rahman”), built at Bordeaux…”]. The references for this footnote are:
- Locotenent-comandor C. Ciuchi, Istoria marinei române în curs de 18 secole, Constanţa, 1906, pp. 173-175.
- Căpitan de rangul I Nicolae Petrescu, Marinari prin ploi de foc, 1877-1878, Editura Militară, Bucureşti, 1978, pp. 32-35, 44-45, 80-82.
At page 520, in Milea, Pascu, Ceauşescu (ed.) Istoria militară a poporului Român, Bucharest, Editura Militară, 1987, vol. IV, there's a list with the ships of the Romanian Danube flotilla and their armament, around 1877 (only some of the ships, those which entered in service after 1866). I will post this list here for reasons of general interests: “iahtul “Ştefan cel Mare” era înarmat cu 4 tunuri Krupp, din oţel, de calibru 78 mm, canoniera cuirasată “Fulgerul” cu un tun “Krupp” de 87 mm iar şalupele “Rândunica” şi “Lebăda” cu torpile cu şcondru” [“the yacht “Ştefan cel Mare” was armed with 4 78 mm Krupp steel cannons, the armored gunboat “Fulgerul” had one 87 mm Krupp cannon and “Rândunica” and “Lebăda” (motor?)boats were armed with spar torpedoes”]. Corroborating this information with that from the page 656, “… ”Rândunica” a lovit decisiv cu o torpilă monitorul ottoman “Hivizi-Rahman”…” [“... ”Rândunica” has decisively hit, with a torpedo, the Ottoman monitor “Hivizi-Rahman”…”] we can conclude that the Turkish vessel was not sunk by a Whitehead torpedo. Also, in my opinion, it is unlikely that any of the boats involved in the action used/were armed with Whitehead torpedoes, these being more suitable for an open sea action than for an attack on a (rather narrow) Danube channel.
The references for the information from Istoria militară a poporului Român, concerning the attack on “Hivizi-Rahman”, are:
- Nicolae Bârladeanu, Dan Nicolaescu, Contribuţii la istoria marinei române, vol. I. Din cele mai vechi timpuri până în 1918, Bucureşti, 1979, pp. 180-181
- Eugeniu Botez, Nicolae Kirtiţescu, Războiul pe Dunăre, vol. I. Operaţiunile fluviale şi maritime ale războiului din 1877-78, Bucureşti, 1904, pp. 60-63
- Ovidiu Mureşan, Un erou al războiului de independenţă: maiorul Murgescu. Ecouri în presa din Transilvania, în Ştefan Meteş la 85 de ani, Cluj-Napoca, 1977, pp. 351-352
|Posted by: Imperialist December 06, 2005 05:01 pm|
Well, then mr. Vacarescu, writing in 1887 about the 1877-78 war got the wrong info about that.
But I think that the Whitehead torpedo at that time was better suited for the narrowness of the channel rather than for open sea performance.
|Posted by: Agarici December 06, 2005 06:04 pm|
A strange contradiction indeed. Well, I think we have al least one uncontested conclusion: since ”Rândunica” was armed with spar torpedoes and ”Hivizi-Rahman” was sunk by ”Rândunica”, the Turkish vessel was sunk by a spar torpedo. If I’m not mistaking, there’s a replica of ”Rândunica” either at the National Military Museum in Bucharest or at the Navy Museum in Constanţa. Now for the ”Văcărescu version” to be accurate, I see only two possibilities:
- the first, if any of the three Russian torpedo boats (”Xenia” and the other two you mentioned) were armed with Whitehead torpedoes and used them (unsuccessfully) against the Ottoman ship
- the second (highly unlikely, in my opinion) is if the spar torpedoes used in the attack were manufactured under a Whitehead license. As I know so far, the name of the British engineer Robert Whitehead and the patent for his invention (purchased by the Trieste naval yard) were connected to the “Whitehead torpedo”, the first self-propelled torpedo to be mass-produced.
There is also a third possibility, that T. C. Văcărescu was using the Whitehead word generically, refering to any type of torpedo (as, for example, the word ”Brandt” was used during WW 2 in the Romanian army for mortar).
By the way, Imperialist, C. Bacalbaşa was from Brăila and lived there during the first stages of the 1877-1878 war, when the Danube naval engagements took place, eye-whitnessing some of them. Nevertheless, you would be surprised how many corrections to his accounts the editor footnotes from his memoirs contains.
If you have time, I think you could follow the path of the first posibility. Unfortunatelly I don’t, and as I’ve said before I think it is hardly plausible that if the details from Văcărescu’s book had been exact all the succeeding naval historians failed to take them into consideration. So, since I've allready presented all the arguments I have, I don't think that any more time invested in this dispute would be a good investment from my part, unless you manage to find out something about the Russian boats.
|Posted by: Imperialist December 06, 2005 07:35 pm|
Most likely, since his exact words are "Acesti bravi oficieri, cu tot focul cuirasatului turcesc care-i zarise, reusira a se apropia de dansul si a-l isbi in coasta cu o torpila "Whitehead" care-l sparse si afunda cu totul". This can be interpreted as a spar torpedo attack description.
Anyway, I think the proper name for the participating boats is spar torpedo boats, in that case. Much clearer.
But further research in the case would be interesting. Maybe someone did sell a whitehead torpedo to Romania.
|Posted by: zarull February 27, 2006 01:10 pm|
|this storry was told to me in class of history of the romanian navy that i had in my years in the naval academy. we had a replica of the the randunica in the laboratory of history as well so from what the lt.cmd. Preda told us and the replica i see the Randunica had "torpile cu şcondru" and with them she sunk the turkish monitor Hivizi-Rahman.|
|Posted by: Iamandi March 01, 2006 11:53 am|
| I re-read recently a fragment of one book about russian navy, published in romanian language in '50, and there it say about the first successfull attack with torpedo to be in russo-ottoman war but there was used also a "torpila de scondru" and not an selfpropeled torpedo. Also, it is writte about Makarov experiments with one launcher-tube who was under the ship.
About that attack is it on the Danube, but are not mentioned the names of the small-ships.
The crew under Murgescu were named after the romanian succ. attack "the heroes from Macin".
|Posted by: Sturmpionier March 04, 2006 12:17 pm|
| Yesterday was the National feast of my country Bulgaria -128 years from the liberation of Bulgaria from Ottoman domination.
Honour to the Romanian soldiers, who died for our liberation!
|Posted by: Carol I July 16, 2006 11:17 pm|
|According to Magazin istoric, a note of September 1936 of the Romanian Minister in Bulgaria, Vasile Stoica, mentioned that the Romanian monument and cemetery in Rahova (Oryahovo) had been destroyed 20 years earlier (the minister observed that the cemetery had even been ploughed in order to remove any trace of it). Have they ever been reconstructed afterwards?|
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 17, 2006 06:56 am|
This monument was built in 1907. It was destroyed in 1916, because Oriahovo was part of the frontline (the Flamanda operation) or just some bulgarians were very angry because of the Romanian invasion in 1913. As I know the monument is reconstruckted now. Unfortunately I do not have any info about the cemetry.
|Posted by: Carol I July 17, 2006 12:30 pm|
I am not certain that we speak about the same location. The 'Rahova' liberated by the Romanian troops in 1877 is mentioned as 'Oryahovo', in the north-west of Bulgaria. The http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=847 was around 'Ryakhovo' in the north-east of Bulgaria.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 17, 2006 01:12 pm|
|Yes I made a mistake. I mind the battle of Rahova in november 1877 too, but the name of the village, where the Flamanda operation took place sounds just similar. Nevermind. Do you want to put here my list of the Romanian monuments in Bulgaria, devoted to the 1877-1878 war, I have ?|
|Posted by: Carol I July 17, 2006 01:20 pm|
That would be interesting. Thanks.
|Posted by: Dénes July 17, 2006 01:27 pm|
| Related to the 1877-1878 war, what is the English equivalent of "chesoane"?
|Posted by: Carol I July 17, 2006 02:12 pm|
'Ammunition carts' or 'ammunition caissons'
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 17, 2006 05:34 pm|
| List of of the monuments in Bulgaria, devotet to the Romanian soldiers in 1877-1878 war.
Mausoleum of the Russian and Romanian soldiers
Monument of general Cerkez
Monument of captain Valter Marichianu
Romanian mausoleum (1897)
Park of the battle friendship
Monument of the fallen Romanian soldiers
Brother mound of the fallen Russian and Romanian soldiers
Museum of the Romanian army (1907)
Park and monment of major Goerge Shoncu
Monument of the Romanian soldiers (1907)
Monument of the Romanian soldiers (1907)
Monument of the Romanian soldiers (1907)
3 monuments of the Romanian soldiers (1879)
Thanks to Denes and Carol І for the tranlation.
|Posted by: Carol I July 17, 2006 06:17 pm|
The name is Valter Mărăcineanu.
The name is Gheorghe Şonţu.
|Posted by: Carol I July 17, 2006 06:29 pm|
Do you have photos as well? Below are the ones mentioned on the site of the http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/main.html.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 17, 2006 06:38 pm|
| Unfortunately I do not have any photos of the monuments.
I must mention, that Inovo is the new name of the well know village Smardan. The last monument of the Romanian soldiers there, was built before 8 years. So, it seems, that this is the fourth Romanian monument there.
|Posted by: Carol I July 20, 2006 10:35 am|
Thanks anyhow for the list. And if you come across some images, please post them here.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 20, 2006 02:10 pm|
|You are welcome. And just one question: Who is the first to enter in the Grivita redut №1 , during the third attack of Pleven on 30th august 1877- captain Mărăcineanu or major Candiano-Popescu with the Russian major Kvitko ? I have contradictory information about this.|
|Posted by: Carol I July 20, 2006 09:18 pm|
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196&view=findpost&p=34069 states that Valter Mărăcineanu had fallen on the same day during the attack on Griviţa 2 ("Baş tabia"), so probably he did not enter Griviţa 1. On the other hand, Alexandru Candiano-Popescu is indeed mentioned as one of the first officers to have entered Griviţa 1 ("Griviçe tabia") following the fourth attack (when both Romanian and Russian troops had entered the redoubt). Nothing is said however on whether he was indeed the very first one.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 21, 2006 08:01 am|
| Thank you for the explanation.
Yes, I know that Mărăcineanu died in the same day, but I do not had any information, during the attack of Grivita redut №1, or №2 was this. So, Mărăcineanu realy surved in the 3rd Romanian division! I have info that, he was a comander of 3rd line battalion of 10th line regiment. But as I know 10th regiment is dorobanz, not line and so the battalion could not be a line too. Because of this mistake in the same Bulgarian source, I was not sure, that Mărăcineanu surved part of 3rd division. Well, did he realy comand this dorobanz battalion as a part of 10th dorobanz regiment ?
When I said " fist to enter " I thought first to step on the breastwork of the redut. Is it true, that Valter Mărăcineanu stept first on the wall of Grivita redut №2 with the flag in the hand and then he was killed ? Btw, could any one post here good photo of the captain. I have only very small one.
In the bulgarian books, there is not so many info about the particiation pf the Romanian army in the Russian-turkish war 1877-1878. And this is for me one of the most interesting episodes of this war. So I use Romanian sources too. Actualy I have never learned Romanian, but this is not a big problem for me to understand a part of the text. Yes, not a small part, but there are always riddles for me
P.S: Does the mentioned book have a parallel English text ? I heard before too, that it is very good source.
|Posted by: Carol I July 21, 2006 02:56 pm|
The above-mentioned source states that Capt. Nicolae Valter-Mărăcineanu was the commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion of the 8th Line Regiment.
It is mentioned that he fell while the Romanians entered the moat of the redoubt, indeed carrying a battalion flag.
It has only a summary in English (30 pages).
|Posted by: Carol I July 21, 2006 03:10 pm|
Capt. Nicolae Valter-Mărăcineanu in 1876
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 21, 2006 07:48 pm|
| Thank you for the photo and the corrections.
Can you tell me please the birthday of Nicolae Valter-Mărăcineanuq to complete the research about him ?
This is photo of the dioram "Grivita 1877" from the site of the National military museum in Bucharest. Is the Romanian "officer" with the flag Candiano-Popescu ?
P.S: 30 pages in English is not bad. Actualy how many pages is the book ?
|Posted by: Kepi July 22, 2006 04:50 am|
| According some sources Captain Nicolae Valter Maracineanu was born on 30th of May 1840.
The Military Museum diorama depicting the final assault over a Turkish redoubt of Plevna on 30th of August 1877 is only a symbolic presentation of that important battle. When it was conceived, at the middle of 1980s, nobody cared about an accurate reconstruction of that moment. So, the officer carrying the regimental flag is a line infantry Lieutenant and he is fallowed by some line infantrymen, dorobantzes and rifles (vanatori). He might portrays the moment when Maracineanu was killed in action during the final assault over Grivita redoubt nr. 2 , but Maracineanu was Captain not Lieutenant, he carried a battalion flag not the regimental colour, and among his fallowers were only line infantrymen and dorobantzes, not “vanatori”.
Alexandru Candiano Popescu led the attacks against the Grivita redoubt nr. 1, during the same time. He was a Major in the cavalry militia, so he was wearing a cavalry hussar style uniform. But on the eve of the attack he was appointed commander of the 2nd Rifles (“Vanatori”) Battalion.
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 22, 2006 11:58 am|
I must make an addition, that the uniform of the turkish "soldier" is very, very incorrect. There are good colour plates and description of the Ottoman uniforms during the war in Osprey MAA277 "The Russo- Turkish war 1877-1878" by
Ian Drury. Here are some drawings of turkish infantry uniforms from the Russian magazine "Sergeant", volume 21:
5- Private from the line infantry
6-NCO from the line infantry
7-Private from the line infantry with not statute elements of his uniform and weapons.
If there is interest, I could post more plates and discriptions of the Turkish uniforms.
When you say "cavalry militia" , you mind the calarasi or the horse jandarms ?
His uniform is realy rather calarasi style, but his cap is rather line infantry style.
|Posted by: Carol I July 22, 2006 04:56 pm|
|Posted by: Kepi July 22, 2006 05:39 pm|
Well, I know Ian Drury’s book about the armies of the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and I must say that it is far to be a correct study of Russian/Romanian/Turkish uniforms (I think the Bulgarian volunteers too). In the plates made by Raffaele Ruggeri Turkish uniforms look light-blue, because they are discoloured and covered by dust. As Ian Drury wrote Turkish uniforms should be dark blue but because the troops “had not received new uniforms for several years, jackets and trousers that were supposed to be blue ranged from dark blue to greenish grey, with every shade between”. The greatest part of Turkish uniforms worn in 1877-78 should be of Zouave style, with the same ornaments on the jackets and trousers.
(Ian Drury and Raffaele Ruggeri, "The Russo- Turkish war 1877-1878", Osprey MAA277 )
I also know the magazine “Sergeant” and its study about Turkish army and uniforms. Unfortunately the author, Lt-colonel S.V. Prishtepa and the artist Y.A Ogarkov, used Ian Drury’s book as one of the main sources.
I think the best source for the Turkish uniforms of 19th Century is General Mahmut Sevket Pasha book: “L’organisation et les uniformes de l’armee ottomane” published in 1908, in Constantinople. A three volumes version was reprinted during the 1980s by the Military Museum of Istanbul. According these plates, the line infantry (Nizam) uniforms should be dark blue with red edgings and braids on the jacket and trousers. The uniforms in the Military Museum of Bucharest were made after this book.
|Posted by: Kepi July 22, 2006 05:54 pm|
Cavalry militia were of kind of “Calarashi” (territorial cavalry). During the war there were 4 squadrons of "Calarashi- Militia" ("Calarasi militiani"). They wore “Calarashi” hussar style uniforms: dark blue or black tunics and white breeches. The braids were black instead of red.
In the photo Candiano-Popescu wears a Cavalry Militia uniform, he also carried during the attack of Grivita redoubt nr.1. The kepi was worn by all officers in the Romanian army for walking-out dress. Indeed, some troops such as the line infantry, artillery, engineers, train, etc. units had only kepis. As a cavalry officer, Major Candiano-Popescu wore in full dress or campaign uniform a black sheepskin busby with a red left side flap.
|Posted by: Carol I July 22, 2006 05:56 pm|
| Major George Şonţu
|Posted by: Sturmpionier July 22, 2006 06:49 pm|
| Well, one of my basic interests is the uniformology, but I am not a "expert" about the turkish uniforms in the 1877-878 war. I made the addition acording this, what I have red and seen as colour plates. Kepi, your information, that the most of the turkish infantry uniforms are zuave style is very interesting and realy new for me.
Yes, the drawing of the Bulgarian volunteer in Osprey M277, and some elements of the russian uniforms there, are very incorrect. It is the same situation with the dorobanz soldier, shown there. Could you post here your notes about the Romanian vanator and line infantryman from this book ? My information about this uniforms is only from this source. Thanks in advance.
As I understand there was a failing of uniforms for the line infantry too ??
Actualy, how big was this failing for the all Romanian army in the eve of the war ?
Thank you for the photo
|Posted by: saudadesdefrancesinhas August 04, 2006 10:21 am|
| I bought the Osprey title on the Russo-Turkish War many years ago, because it was one of the few titles I could find that contained information on Romanian and Turkish uniforms. However, I started to think that it was not very accurate, and I think a possible reason for this is that the author probably did not use any Romanian, Turkish, Bulgarian or Russian sources when he was writing the book.
Nearly all of the pictures come from different books published in England at the time of the war, or thereabouts, for example; Cassel's History of the Russo-Turkish War etc.
Much of the uniform and other information comes, I suspect, from 'Intelligence' manuals and other publications of the War Office in London, and possibly contemporary articles in military journals, but mostly UK ones. This means that there is scope for inaccuracies to creep in.
Nowadays, with more access to other sources, I think a much better Osprey could be written.
|Posted by: Dénes August 04, 2006 02:01 pm|
The problem with Osprey (and probably other publishers, which have some interest in publishing such 'exotic' topics) is that once they covered a particular subject, they would not touch it again for at least ten years.
I also published with them a book on Rumanian aviation, and when I approached them again with another (not similar) topic, they told me to get in touch with them in about ten years.
|Posted by: saudadesdefrancesinhas August 06, 2006 10:02 pm|
| Hi Denes,
What is the title of your book?
|Posted by: Sturmpionier August 12, 2006 04:47 pm|
Finally I found some. One guy from the Bulgarian military history forum ( http://forum.boinaslava.net/showthread.php?p=158137#post158137 ) has the idea to take photos of all monuments round Pleven. With his permission I post here the photos of Romanian monuments and items.
Romanian monument in Grivita
Part of this monument. Translation please
Romanian uniforms from the Grivita museum. Is the right uniform, uniform of a dorobanz officer ?
Romanian battle flags from the same museum. Are they battalion or regimental flags ?
|Posted by: Dénes August 12, 2006 08:02 pm|
"He/she who fights heroically, his/her name will remain eternal" (written in old-style Rumanian language).
|Posted by: Sturmpionier August 12, 2006 08:42 pm|
|Posted by: Carol I August 13, 2006 09:40 am|
| Thanks for the photos.
The other side of the monument in Griviţa:
From the site of the http://www.el-soft.com/panorama/en/main.html
|Posted by: Sturmpionier August 13, 2006 04:48 pm|
| I hope I will have more photos in future.
I have one one question more: How was the OoB of the two calarasi Brigades of Armata de operatii in August 1877 ? There were seven calarasi reguments, but how were they alignmented in the two Brigades ?
|Posted by: Sturmpionier August 16, 2006 06:46 pm|
|Nobody knows ?|
|Posted by: dragos03 August 29, 2006 09:30 pm|
| There were actually a total of 10 cavalry regiments. During the war, some of these were temporarely grouped in several formations:
- The Cavalry Division, consisting of the Rosiori Brigade (1 and 2 Rosiori regiments), the "C. Formac Cavalry Brigade" (5 and 6 Calarasi regiments) and the 1st Horse Artillery Battery, this unit was later part of the Russian-Romanian Cavalry Corps
- the Rosiori Brigade was a part of the "General Meyendorf cavalry detachment", which also had some Russian cavalry units
After the war, during the tensions with Russia, the cavalry units were grouped in:
- 1st Cavalry Division (3,4,7,8 Calarasi Regiments)
- 2nd Cavalry Division (1,2,5,6 Calarasi Regiments)
- Rosiori Brigade (1 and 2 Rosiori Regiments)
|Posted by: Carol I October 19, 2006 10:06 am|
Old Bulgarian postcard with the Carol I Museum near Plevna (from eBay)
|Posted by: Sturmpionier January 26, 2007 11:39 pm|
Some news: The Romanian monument, was restorated and now it's locate in the centre of the town of Oryahovo. Unfortunately I fon't have any information about the cemetry.
|Posted by: Mike Blake August 28, 2008 09:29 am|
| Fascinating stuff, many thanks for the information. I'm planning a 54mm wargame on the war, and am about to embark on converting and painting the figures, so uniform info is great. I have the Osprey, and a couple of UK hobby magazine articles, but that's all, so more accurate information is really helpful. The results will end up appearing in an article in Toy Soldier & Model Figure, a UK toy soldier magazine. I will cite this DG and acknowledge the contributors, of course.
Can anyone tell me where I can buy the Armata Romana book, please? I have the earlier one for 1859-1866, but did not know of the 2nd volume as it is not listed on the 1st.
Also how to subscribe to a topic, please? All DGs seem to have different ways of doing it! Thanks.
|Posted by: bansaraba August 28, 2008 10:48 am|
| A lot of Romanian uniforms from that period:
@Sturmpionier: The flags are regimental, but I believe the last 2 are reproductions (the first is obviously original, pretty damaged, sewn in tulle for better preservation).