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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army at War > Carol II fortified line|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:10 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:13 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:15 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:16 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:17 am|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 04:18 am|
|Posted by: mihnea March 31, 2007 06:54 am|
|Interesting pictures but I wonder why you haven't posted more info on there location, any plans or sketches of the structures, if there are any battle scars, how thick are the walls, the roof etc etc.|
|Posted by: 21 inf March 31, 2007 03:50 pm|
| Well, i didn't cared about detalils like the thickness of the walls, or the interior plans of the buildings. I was more interested on how did they used the firing slits etc., above all, i have 2 left hands when it comes about drawings
I didnt post the history of the fortified line by 2 reasons:
- i posted some months ago a request, asking for informations regarding this fortified line, request asked on this very forum. It went no reply since then, meaning only 2 things: people from this forum dont know anything about this little piece of romanian history or they didnt care at all about it. It was several months, after all.
- second reason: i posted some real informations on this forum, based on real evidences, wich i posses, and i was atacked by my fellow romanian, wich were sustaining the point of view of another nation. Giving the fact that this casemates was directed to west against a certain nation, i want to avoid discussion with fellow romanians who forget their history.
And a solid argument not post any info, is because i found NO info on romanian sites over Internet about this casemates, despite the fact that there are 320 of them, scattered along the entire western border of Romania.
The only info available i found it on hungarian or other foreign sites.
It seems that my fellow romanians are interested only on the line Focsani-Namoloasa-Galati.
Even so, if someone is really interested, I know a little part of the history of this fortified line, so I can post the infos.
|Posted by: Dan Po March 31, 2007 08:51 pm|
| 21inf, I wonder why you cannot be a little bit more "professional". take the pics, make a plan, came here with certain informations and don t scream like a pubbbbbbssy about the hungarian threat. no offence is just a friendly advice.
here we talk about military facts. I think we cand have just a littke more "military" atitude than another persons. what do you think ?
certain informations, with photos and plans are more effective in matter of historical truth or anything else, are more effective I say, than any speech.
|Posted by: mihnea March 31, 2007 09:27 pm|
| I was asking for more information regarding the fortification/s (you haven't said how many you have visited), were are they located North, South, East, West of witch village/city, can you pin point there location on Google Erath?. And more info about those fortifications how many MG emplacements, cannons, observation posts maybe turrets, etc.
I hoped you would make a presentation like wings made here: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=41&st=105
Unfortunately there are no books or articles on the Carol II line, as far as I know.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 04:48 am|
-linia rosie: soseaua Oradea-Arad
-linia albastra: drumul de acces din Nojorid, prin sat, peste pasune pina la cazemata, pe linga padure
-linia galbena: traseul santului antitanc care deservea cazematele in 1940
On the bottom of the pic, on the right side of the yellow line (antitank ditch) one could see 3 black dots in a row.
Those 3 black dots are the casemates that i visited and wich photos one could see above, on previous posts.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:00 am|
| I visited 4 casemates in the day that my friend made the photos and yesterday i entered in one more casemate, the one indicated on the map above, wich is situated now in the wood.
The situation of the fortified line in Oradea area is from north to south:
west of Oradea, following a line in south-east direction going to Nojorid village in a manner that the line is going east of Nojorid.
I personally have seen 11 casemates (2 of them beeing situated in the wood), from north to south, in time. One of the casemates is only 5 meters from the present days Oradea-Arad road, on the left hand on that direction.
Also, the antitank ditch can be seen from that very road. It is partially filled with water on some portions. On other sectors it is dry.
It have aproximatelly 5 meters deep and probably 15 meters wide (eye measurement).
Some of the casemates are situated 30 meters from the antitank ditch, while others are situated some hundred of meters (100-300 m) from it.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:13 am|
| The casemates have 2 levels: one ground level and one underground level.
Because of the high degree of destruction, few of them allow acces to the underground level, actually i could see only one underground level, even that beeing flooded with water and obturated with concrete debrids.
It seems that those who blew up the casemates have previously recuperated the iron reinforcement (fierul-beton).
All casemates have the iron extracted, some of them only from the interior, some of them both from interior and exterior. It can be clearly seen from the photos that one of them have o lot of squares (patrate) on the exterior; those are the places where the iron reinforcement was depleted.
It seems that before the recuperation of iron they have to broke the concrete, because near the firing slits it can be seen the thickness of the concrete wich was torn away to reach the iron. It was about 4 centimeters of concrete wich was broke to reach the iron.
All the concrete debrids resulted from this operations seems to be transported to the undergound level, since there i found the underground filled with debrids and the interior of the casemates, the floor i mean, is clean, giving the fact that otherwise the quantity of concrete debrids have to be tons and cannot be in the surounding of the buildings.
This is the flooded underground level, partially blocked with concrete debrids.
View from the door.
Acces to the right side of the underground level, view from the door.
Acces to the left side of the underground level, view from the door.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:30 am|
| The firing slits are in number of 6 for each casemate.
3 on the left side, 3 on the right side.
They look like this seen from the exterior.
They are firing slits for machine guns.
This is the interior view of the same firing slits from above.
Between the firing slits one can see a pipe in concrete, at a 45 degree angle.
It served to evacuate the used cartridges at the exterior of the casemate.
In front of each firing slit there it is a concrete ditch 3 meters wide and 2 meters deep where the used cartridges where evacuated and collected, allowing more space to the defenders inside.
There i found no signs of firing slits used for antitank guns.
There are no cupolas or observation points.
It can be seen clearly the ventilation sistem made from iron pipes, sometimes with diameters about 0.5 meters.
Also, it can be seen the comunication of the ground level with the underground level, consisting in concret pipes on the ground level floor, about 1 meter in diameter. Probably this comunication was used to elevate ammo from the underground level.
I found no sign of main door, probably the main iron door was removed and the area around main door was blown up. I couldn found not even the frame of the main door, even giving the fact i visited so many casemates.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:33 am|
| These pillboxes were manned by the 2nd Fortification Infantry Regiment, from the 1st Fortification Brigade.
This regiment was formed on 27 June 1939, by transforming the 86th Infantry Regiment into a fortification regiment. It was formed at Oradea.
On 15 November 1939 the 2nd Fortification Regiment was deployed near Oradea. The tragic month of August 1949 found the regiment on the Romanian Western border and in September 1940 it was forced to abandon the fortified line, following the Vienna Diktat.
Also in Oradea was formed the 1st Fortification Artillery Regiment from the 4th Mountain Howitzer Battalion. It was disbanded in 1943, when it was used to rebuild the 16th Artillery Regiment of the 6th Infantry Division.
Up until this moment I do not know if the 2nd Fortification Infantry Regiment served together with the 1st Fortification Artillery Regiment, although this is highly possible, because they were both part of the 1st Fortification Brigade.
[translated by admin]
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:35 am|
| These casemates are part of a bigger fortified structure named Carol II fortified line.
This line was built to defend western border of Romania against hungarian army.
The length of the fortified line is 300 km, from Seini, Maramures county to Zimandu Nou, Arad county in the south.
The blueprints was french and the buildings was raised with french and british funds.
In 1938 80 casemates was built, in 1939 was built another 180, and in 1940 all the 320 casemates were ready.
The foritifed line was never used in battle, cos only few months after it's completion, following Viena Diktat, Transilvania was ocupied by hungarians who blew up all casemates.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 05:37 am|
| Singurele lupte care s-au dat pe linia Carol II le-au dat pina la urma ... ungurii, dar nu ca atacatori, ci ca proprietari ai liniei.
More info about this fight posted courtesy to Denes.
My fault for using romanian language.
|Posted by: Dan Po April 01, 2007 07:00 am|
|good job 21inf ! I will try to see those places with my own eyes. I mean about plans and pics.|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 07:14 am|
|translated the previous romanian posts in english.|
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 07:25 am|
This is the plan of tipycal infantry czech blockhouse R-74 "Na holem" ground floor.
As i studied this plan, it looks very similar to the casemates from Oradea and implicit with Carol II line.
1. embrasure for one 47mm gun with MG vz. 37 so called "L1" weapon
2. embrasure for two MGs vz. 37
3. embrasure for one MG vz. 26
4. bell for observation and for close defence with three embrasures for one MG vz. 26
5. machine gun ammunition storage
6. telephonist's room
7. commander's room
8. stairs to lower floor
9. water tank and machine gun ammunition
10. room of artillery officer
11. embrasure for defence of entrance
I'd say that in proportion of 90-95% is similar with the romanian casemates.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 07:42 am|
| Infantry blockhouses were class 1,2, I, II, III resistance.
Main caracteristics of those class resistance blockhouses were:
-ceiling 120 (class 1) up to 250 (class III) cm
-front wall 120 (class 1) up to 275 (class III) cm
-wall with main weapons 80 (class 1) up to 125 (class III) cm
-side of nape 80 (class 1) up to 125 (class III) cm
-resistance up to caliber 15.5 (class 1) up to 30.5 (class III)
This is very posible how the romanian casemates looked inside in 1940.
This is the interior of czech MO-19 "Alej" casemate, but the firing slits looks exactly like the romanian ones. On the bottom part of the gun is visible the 45 degree pipe that is still visible on romanian casemates today.
In the image is a L1 (4.7 cm gun with MG37). In the background there it is a machine gun.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 07:44 am|
| I was right with the description of the ditches in front of the ambrasures.
Embrasures with main weapons (L1, M) was always protected by light MG vz.26. These MGs were also in bells. A deep ditch in front of the embrasures of the main weapons protected them against attacks of enemy soldiers and assured that debris from any shelling did not obstruct the field of fire. These ditches are 2.1 m (resistance classes 1 and 2) or 3.1 m (I to IV) deep
|Posted by: Dénes April 01, 2007 08:11 am|
Here is what I wrote in a book manuscript currently under work:
"A notable local Hungarian victory – with German assistance from the air – against Soviet armor took place on September 20 . The commander of the 19th Field Infantry Replacement Division, based nearby Miniş (Ménes), recalled that the so-called Carol Fortified Line – built pre-war by the Rumanians against the excepted Hungarian attack – lies nearby, including a large anti-tank ditch.
Assuming that the Soviets are not aware of this defensive structure, he ordered his men to lure the enemy armor towards the ditch. His assumption proved to be correct and the advancing Soviet tanks were halted by the unexpected, unsurpassable obstacle. At this point, the Hungarian tanks and anti-tank cannon of the 1st Armored Division ambushed the stranded Soviet tanks northwest of Zimandu Nou (Zimándújfalu). Soon German ground attack planes joined in the killing frenzy.
Within hours, the entire Soviet armored force, consisting of 25 T-34s of the 18th Tank Corps, was annihilated. The Hungarians accounted for seven tanks, the rest being knocked out by the Luftwaffe Schlachtfliegern. By the end of the day, the German flyers reported 30 enemy tanks ‘killed’ in the area, along with 120 trucks and vehicles. The Axis allies did not suffer any losses. However, this local Hungarian victory – known to them as ‘the tank battle at Pénzespuszta’ – did not halt the overall Soviet offensive, only slowed it down. It allowed, however, the 3rd Army units to seamlessly regroup to new defensive positions."
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 08:18 am|
View from the back.
View from right side.
View from left side.
Ambrasure for MG26.
|Posted by: Dénes April 01, 2007 08:22 am|
| Oops, only now I realise that I've already posted this episode in another similar thread:
Most probably '21inf' took his info from this excerpt, 'romancising' it a bit...
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 08:35 am|
| To Denes
corrected my errors, i did not memorised and mentioned the source when i used the infos u mentioned above.
to avoid suspicions, i deleted that post, and if u believe that i translated from you i apollogise if necesary.
|Posted by: Dénes April 01, 2007 09:50 am|
| O.K., 21inf., case closed.
P.S. Why don't you give us your name, at least the Christian name, as most of us, which would give your posts more credibility?
|Posted by: 21 inf April 01, 2007 11:17 am|
| Thnk u Denes for understanding.
As refered to my Christian name, i didnt posted it cos i believe that in time, ppl around here will know me, and as a proof that i want to b correct all the time is above, when i corrected a possible error made by myself, due to my negligence, cos i didnt memorised and mentioned the source of my info and i could inflict damage to ur rights, unintentionatelly.
I dont want to harm anybody and i dont lie in my posts, cos i'm eligibile to loose my image and of course credibility.
It is a true fact in my username, i served in 21st Infantry Battalion "Traian Mosoiu", 11th Motomechanised Division "Carei".
When time will come, i'll let to know my name.
All the best and take care of u.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 07, 2007 06:37 am|
| To Denes:
Please, when u have time, can u be so kind to translate this quote?
It is about Carol II fortified line, but since i'm not a native hungarian spoker, i dont want ot do mistake in translating into english.
Figyelembe kellett venni továbbá a magyar határral párhuzamosan húzódó román erődvonalat is. Ezt az erődvonalat 1937-ben francia és angol támogatással és tanácsadók segítségével kezdték el építeni, amely a trianoni határral párhuzamosan kb. 300 km hosszan, a Tiszától a Marosig, majd az Erdélyi-Kárpátok, a Bükk hegység, az Érmelléki dombok, a Bihar- és Solymosi-hegység nyugati lábánál húzódott. Az volt a rendeltetése, hogy akár északon a Szamos völgyében, akár délen a Maros völgyében felvonuló román erők belső szárnyát védje, mert a külső szárnyak északon Csehszlovákiára, délen Jugoszláviára támaszkodhattak.
Az erődvonal építése egyre gyorsabb ütemben folytatódott a megkezdett munkálatok után. 1940 nyarára az erődvonal több mint 300 jól kiépített elemmel rendelkezett, amelyek jól összehangolt rendszert képeztek.
A betonerődöket általában egymás mellé telepítették, csak néhány helyen alkalmaztak mélységi tagozódást, főleg fontosabb csomópontokban. Az egyes elemek a várható támadási irányokba "vakok" voltak, és csak oldalazó tüzet tudtak lőni.
Minden erőd lőrése és bejárata elé egy, a megközelítést akadályozó vizes (ún. "Diamant") árkot terveztek. Ennek az volt a feladata, hogy megnehezítse az ellenség dolgát, amikor az robbanótöltetet akar elhelyezni a résekbe. A lőréseket védő árkot - a nagyobb erődöknél - egy külön lőrésbe elhelyezett géppisztoly (géppisztolyos katona) biztosította. Az árkokat csöveken keresztül az erődökből lehetett vízzel feltölteni, mivel minden erőd rendelkezett saját kúttal. A tervek szerint a figyelést az ellenség irányába periszkópokkal oldották volna meg, de ezek a műszerek nem kerültek beépítésre, így a felderítés és a pontos tűzvezetés feltételei nem voltak meg.
A világítást kőolaj lámpákkal oldották meg, de például latrináról nem gondoskodtak. A friss levegő biztosítását szellőzőcsövek segítségével oldották meg, amelyekre szükség esetén szűrő berendezést is csatlakoztatni tudtak.
Az erődök egymástól általában 200-300 méterre voltak, de a fontosabb helyeken (vasút, útcsomópont, lakott terület stb.) erődcsomópontokat alakítottak ki. Itt az erődök 25-50 méterre voltak egymástól, és mélységbe is tagolták őket. Az erődök közötti összeköttetést föld alatti vezetékek segítségével biztosították.
Érdekessége még az erődvonalnak, hogy az erődökbe beosztott legénység csak veszély esetén foglalta el őrhelyét a kiépített helyeken, addig az erődök mellé felépített téglaépületben tartózkodtak, ami egyértelműen laktanyai elhelyezést biztosított a katonák számára.
Az elkerülhetetlennek látszó magyar-román háborút végül a 27-én benyújtott román jegyzék akadályozta meg, amelyben a románok jelezték (valószínűleg német nyomásra), hogy elfogadnak egy "döntőbírói" eljárást a kritikus területekkel kapcsolatban.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 07, 2007 08:09 am|
| On this site one can fond a WW2 movie, made by hungarian army, when they entered Transilvania in 1940.
In this movie can be clearly seen the casemates as they were in 1940, and the movie is taken in Oradea surroundings, as the speaker says in hungarian language.
It also can be seen the barbed wire in front of the casemates and antitank obstacles made from railroad tracks.
On the site click on "Uj! Korabeli Klipp a Karolyvonalrol! Itt letoltheto", written with yellow letters.
On the site one can also find some photos of the romanians casemates originating from 1940.
|Posted by: 21 inf April 07, 2007 08:48 am|
| What was supose to happend if the fortified line would be attacked?
Original hungarian army film from WW2, showing an artilery bombardment over one casemate, followed by infantry and pionier assault, using flamethrowers.
To see the film, click on "ezt itt", written with yellow letters, on the following link:
|Posted by: Dénes April 13, 2007 12:43 pm|
| Perhaps these photos show concrete bunkers of the Carol Line, photographed by a Hungarian officer in early September 1940:
[Photo: Erik Naberhuis coll.]
|Posted by: mihnea April 13, 2007 02:52 pm|
| I have taken the liberty to improve the quality of the picture posted by Denes (if he has any objections I will remove it).
|Posted by: Dénes April 13, 2007 04:49 pm|
| No problem at all, Mihnea. Thanks.
|Posted by: 21 inf July 12, 2007 08:05 pm|
| There it was a second line of defense of Carol II fortified line.
I found it, probably, on the valley of Crisul Alb, Arad county, on the road Gurahont - Deva.
There are 2 caves (grote - in romanian) made by romanian army in 1939; the caves are exactly on that road, 100 meters one after another.
Each cave have 2 entrances.
Distance between entrances: about 30 meters.
One opening looks to the road (posible to allow observation and firing field) and one also opening to the road, but from the positioning, it was destinated for suplying the troops inside and evac.
Here is the entrance on the 1st cave, entrance cleared from vegetation.
View from the inside, to the road.
This is the "evac/supply" entrance, of the 1st cave.
View from close distance
View from bigger distance.
The distance from the road of this entrance, aprox. 4 meters.
|Posted by: 21 inf July 13, 2007 11:42 am|
| The room from the observation/firing opening.
From floor to the ceiling, 2.20 meters.
Wide: 4 meters
Lenght: 6 meters
(all measurement are made "by eye", since I had no instruments with me).
The room from the back opening.
A little smaller than the main entrance.
On the right side is a room, probably for the crew and storage, about 6x6 meters.
I'll name this crew room secondary, cos in the front, there it is another crew room, a little bigger, i'll name this one principal crew room.
On the left side there it is a tunnel at the same height (2.20 meters) linking with the main opening controling the road.
On the way to the secondary crew room.
The secondary crew room, and what is inside these days.
|Posted by: 21 inf July 13, 2007 12:06 pm|
| View from the secondary entrance.
This pic I took from the main entrance of the second cave.
View from East toward West.
with brown - 3 obstacles that was there in ww2, according to a local man, Lazar Alexandru, age 14 in 1939, who saw this road in those years.
M.E.- main entrance
S.E. - secondary entrance
|Posted by: 21 inf August 08, 2007 03:39 pm|
| Not exactly the fight from the casemates of Carol II fortified line, but anyway a fight somewhere near or at Oradea (Grosswardein in the movie), in 1944.
Germans against russian, and some images with some romanian troops surender to the germans.
|Posted by: 21 inf September 27, 2007 09:17 pm|
| From the source: http://members.lycos.co.uk/karolyvonal/karolyvonal.html as the owner of the site declare on the title:
“I’d like to upload here two irredentist notes which are mentioning the Carol II fortified line [near Oradea – 21 inf note]”
The importance of the notes is that one can believe that they are oriented as propaganda against the newest Romanian fortification near the Romanian-Hungarian border, but at a close look, one can see that the chorus is sending the reader’s mind to the Motzi.
Those who wrote this notes, didn’t forget the havoc that Motzii brought to Hungarian army in 1849, because the chorus and the cities mentioned there have no link at all with Motz people under any circumstances.
Motzii were remembered even after almost 100 years after the events (probably around 1939-1940 when the fortified line was built) and this show the impact and the importance of this people on the fight for national freedom.
Of course the notes also state that Hungarian army was not afraid about Romanian fortifications and also gives a clue about the proposed destination
This are the notes in original in Hungarian language
Szeretnék ide feltenni két irredenta nótát amely a Károlyvonalat is említi
Töltve van a fegyverünk,
Székely testvér nem kell várjál sokáig.
Mindannyian egyek leszünk,
Míg a világ eggyet teszünk,
Brassó, Temesvár, Déva, Segesvár,
A mócokat kizavarjuk belõle.
Búsulhat már az oláh,
Bújhat a beton alá,
Ott is megásta a sírját magának
Magyar zászló lobogjon,
Magyar bakkancs kopogjon,
Erdély, Brassó és Temesvár utcáin
Mindannyian egyek leszünk,
Míg a világ eggyet teszünk,
Brassó, Temesvár, Déva, Segesvár,
A mócokat kizavarjuk belõle.
This is a English translation by my Hungarian language knowledge:
We are going to Transylvania
Our weapons are loaded
Brother Szekler you don’t have to wait any longer.
We’ll be all together
We put the world together
We are heading forward.
Brasov, Timisoara, Deva, Sighisoara
We’ll drive the Motzi out from it.
The valach can sad,
He can hide behind the concrete,
He also can dig his own grave there.
Hungarian flag to flutter
Hungarian boots to knock
On the streets of Brasov, Timisoara and Transylvania
We’ll be together.
And the world we put together
We are heading forward.
Brasov, Timisoara, Deva, Sighisoara
We’ll drive the Motzi out from it.
|Posted by: 21 inf October 27, 2007 10:29 am|
| As the romanian Carol II fortification system failed to achieve it's role because romanian politic class was inefficiant, hungarian army entered Transylvania in September 1940.
At this link one can see ww2 era movie showing hungarian army enetring Oradea and Cluj-Napoca.
DIN TARA MOTILOR EU AM VENIT!
|Posted by: 21 inf May 01, 2008 08:43 am|
| Fightings on the Carol II fortified line in september 1944, as hungarian sources present it. Note that in the fight were involved hungarian-german armies on one side (defending), while on the other side were soviet-romanian armies (atacking).
Part from a bigger article written by Szarka Levente; this small text bellow translated and adapted by me from hungarian language into english for this forum:
"A Sziget-hegység vonalán megkapaszkodott magyar csapatok ellen a szovjet-román csapatok szeptember 20-ra támadást készítettek elõ....A magyar 1. páncéloshadosztály erõit kora délután riadóztatták. Az 1. harckocsiezred és az 5/1. gépvontatású üteg Zimándújfalu felé vette az irányt....A nap folyamán a magyar 1. páncéloshadosztály csapatai a románok által épített "Carol" vonal harckocsiárkánál 25 T-34 típusú szovjet harckocsit csaltak tõrbe és a német csatarepülõk segítségével 23-at sikerült is megsemmisíteni."
"The soviet-romanian troops prepared the atack against the hungarian troops located on Sighet hills for the day of 20 september....The 1st Hungarian Armored Division was put on allarm early on the afternoon. The 1st Hungarian Armored Regiment was directed towards the village Zimandu Nou. During this day units from 1st Hungarian Armored Division atracted on the romanian build "Carol" line a force of 25 T-34 soviet tanks and with the support of german Luftwaffe managed to destroy 23 of atacking soviet tanks."
|Posted by: Dénes May 20, 2010 06:50 pm|
| This is a book I've just bounced upon:
Unfortunately, I don't have any further info.
|Posted by: 21 inf May 21, 2010 08:43 pm|
| I know the author, he is a young amateur historian who is pasionate about military fortifications. He wrote his book (the one presented at the link above) based on hungarian, romanian and other foreign sources. I helped him with the romanian informations about the history of Carol II line, actually with the translation and selection of texts from the book "Politica apararii granitei de vest..." by colonel ® C. Mosincat. It is a good book about Carol II fortified line, which has at least the merit of compiling sources from diferent sides, making a more complete image of the sides (hungarian and romanian). The book is wrote entirely in hungarian language.
For the help provided, the author gave me one of this book, when we met at Oradea, this March, at the Military Museum. After this meeting, I guided him at the casemates, near Oradea.
|Posted by: 21 inf January 25, 2011 08:22 pm|
I have to corect the info about armament of the casemates. They were not provided with artilery guns, only with machine and submachineguns. The bels were never put in place, as they never arived from abroad, where they were ordered to be built.
The firing sistem was of flanking type, the casemates were covering each other with automatic fire and there were no firings slits oriented toward west. The density of fire could reach in some places 1 bullet at each 2 or centimeters of terrain, making any infantry imposible or at least extremelly costly.
|Posted by: MMM January 26, 2011 07:23 pm|
|... but the plans existed! Until september 1939, the only fronteer on which there were real fortifications was the Romanian-Hungarian fronteer. The rhythm was slow because "Carol II-nd didn't believe in sitting in concrete boxes", but mainly because it involved a lot of manpower and money!|
|Posted by: 21 inf January 26, 2011 09:00 pm|
| About what plans do you speak, MMM?
The functionality of entire line was a bullsh*t. There was so small numbers of casemates properly armed and manned, that in the case of an enemy atack they were useless.
The bells of casemates were not existing, the artilery was not available in numbers, the landmines lacked in most of cases, the number of soldiers to serve the casemates was too low and there were no specialised troops for manning the casemates.
The remarcable facts about the casemates was their number (aprox 300), their emplacement on the field, the firepower, the big antitank ditch and the capacity to endure enemy artilery and aviation fire. Also, it is remarcable the speed of their construction, from 1938 to 1940.
|Posted by: MMM January 28, 2011 02:19 pm|
| Well, the plans that were made - and partially realised in the second half of the 1930's: I don't remember if you have access to Petre Otu's book, which offers also interesting data (I quote from page 50): "...in 1936 was made a new plan for the Western fronteer, conventional, thus opened to any aggression. At 05.03.1937 the CSAŢ approved the project "Permanent defensive organisation of Western Front". It comprised the development of fortified areas Someş, Crişul Negru, Mureş and the group of fortifications Ţibleş-Rodna. At a later date there was the idea that the Oradea sector is to be fortified and in april 1938 the Mureş Gate fortifications plan was adopted [...] in the summer of 1939 the works at the Some; Gate fortifications were finalized [...] in july 1939 were finalized 160 machine-gun bunkers and 12 bunkers for the platoon comand centers. Those were weaklz endowed with artillery materials. There were 24 km. of anti-tanc ditches and barbed wire networks in total length of 107 km. There weren't any spots made for howitzers, though."
All these are based on archive documents from AMR Piteşti, currently unavailable now (I'm still waiting for news from them).
Is it clearer now?
|Posted by: 21 inf January 28, 2011 05:45 pm|
| Yes, it is.
Unfortunatelly, I dont know any serious book about this fortifications and about detailed plans of them: clasification of bunkers, types, armament and any other info usual for a serious book. I have access only at "Politica de aparare a vestului Romaniei" by colonel Constantin Mosincat, book which is good in the absence of other. However, despite the big effort made by the author, there are a lot of blank spots in the history and the story of this casemates.
|Posted by: MMM January 28, 2011 07:15 pm|
|In Mr. Otu's book there are more references, more numbers, but no effective placement of the bunkers and such... I have to say that is not my priority, as well...|
|Posted by: mitzaRO December 11, 2011 08:02 pm|
| Today i took my camera when i was at the casemate around the forest.
|Posted by: PzKpfW November 23, 2013 09:34 pm|
These were taken fresh today during us scouring the location near Nojorid/Oradea within point blak range from the most accesible 3 casemates.
Also below there are some items we unearthed during this detection. From left to right :
1. Pyrotechnic capsule of what appears to have been a signal flare (notice the red paint on it's bottom and pin impact point)
2. Superior top neck of a metalic recipient (skirts of former body can be observed, coroded)
3. Unidentified iron part. I'm guessing it could be some sort of self screwing rivet used for the infrastructure of the casemates or metallic bunker doors ? Lemme know if you think of something else.
Me and my buddy will combe the area more thorough if the weather is kind with us in the upcoming days however we've had a pain in the neck with a ton of beer bottle caps, tin cans and beer cans etc ... it's a pitty folks often mistake our wooden areas with personal dump holes.
Will keep you informed of future finds.
P.S. A question for the mods : What's the correct section where one may post metal detection military finds (for future refference) ?
|Posted by: Florin November 24, 2013 01:01 am|
| It was like a curse: none of the Romanian fortifications built during peace time with a lot of expenses, since the end of the XIXth century, were used according to their designation.
And considering WWII, interesting enough, one of the most useful fortification line was the German West Wall, built in the beginning mostly for political reasons, rather than military, then totally neglected and looted for other lines from the summer of 1940 to the summer of 1944, until it got dilapidated.
Upgraded in a rush in less than 4 weeks by teenagers and old men, it kept the American, British, Canadian and French armies at the border of Germany for 6 months.
|Posted by: MMM November 24, 2013 04:17 pm|
1. This can be so easily explained, as the fortified areas were built (of course) on the threatened borders; when push came to shove, the political decision was NOT to fight, thus NOT to use the fortifications. The notable exception is the over-rated FNB line, on which we could (perhaps) have resisted the Soviet onslaught in early september 1944. (off-topic: so what?)
2. Really? SIX months? From September 1944 to March 1945? But did the allied forces attack the line for six months? Check your data a little, please...
|Posted by: Florin November 25, 2013 12:58 am|
Answer to.1 : We know why, but it was as I said: big expenses during peacetime that did not fruit to an use during wars.
When I wrote my first comment, I did not forget the FNB line, but that was not built during peacetime.
Answer to.2 : Please spend 100 minutes to watch this
You can also spend 105 minutes to watch this:
But as the focus of the two documentaries occassionally overlap, if you don't have time look at the first one only. And even though that documentary is very interesting from start to end, if your interest is for the West Wall only, start at about minute 46.
|Posted by: Taz1 November 25, 2013 10:34 am|
| The constructions of the Carol line wa questioned buy some ploticians and military that to expensive and not so very efective and that with the money that was spend the army colud buy other necessary things like tanks etc. Many be they were wright but all so because of the politicians those fortifications never get the chance to show some military value.
Regarding the effectivness of the German West Wall not only the fortifications were very effective agains the allied army but the weather all so _ the harsh winter, the bad roads, the dense forests that made the defence much more easy for the germans.
|Posted by: Radub November 25, 2013 01:51 pm|
| This type of fortress was a popular idea in the days of "horizontal warfare" but they became obsolete with the advent of aviation.
There is also ring of forts around. Bucharest built during the reign of Carol I. http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistemul_de_fortificații_al_Bucureștiului
Some of these were destroyed, but some are still in use, the most famous being Jilava.
You can see them from "Soseaua de centura" hidden in small forests. You can also see then in Google Earth (some with Panoramio photos).
|Posted by: Florin November 26, 2013 02:53 am|
As teenager I walked through the tunnels of one of them. For a teenager it was a cool experience, but not completely without risks. Another guy of my age fell somewhere, because the floor occasionally was not at constant elevation. It was a nasty experience for him, even though he did not need to go to the hospital.
Other guys of my age claimed that they found a skull somewhere in a tunnel. I did not see that, and knowing today that they were not used in combat, I have doubts about it.
Interesting enough, at one location a horizontal steel gear (with inner pointed teeth) was encased in a cylindrical concrete wall - the kind of gear allowing a canon to revolve 360 degrees. Either it was a modern feature installed in the beginning of construction (end of XIXth century), either it was a later addition.
All this "survey" happening before 1989, and ignorant as we were at that age, we thought that they were built by the Germans.
|Posted by: MMM November 30, 2013 11:29 am|
Really? But when was it built, then?
Is this wrong? I will search into "Istoria Militară a Poporului Român", if you believe it is wrong, but I DO remember it was begun in XIX-th century.
Re: documentaries and stuff, two small things: 1. one should not believe ad litteram everything on TV...
2. I was saying that the "West Wall Battle" did not unravel for six months of continual attacks of the Allied Forces. Or is your oppinion (YOURS, not History Channel`s) that it was?
|Posted by: Florin December 04, 2013 03:18 am|
1. This is an occasion to clarify something peacefully. Should I understand that "FNB / FNG" are abbreviations for the ring of forts around Bucharest ? First time when I read the initials I took them as "Focsani - Namoloasa - etc. "
OK, if I made a horrendous mistake, you'll live happily ever after.
Following this logic, why should we trust books ? Why not trusting only what we saw with our own eyes? But I think our lives are too short, and we cannot be in too many places, so this is not an option. If we can trust some books, why we should not trust some documentaries ? Especially when we think that we already know a lot, we can use our judgement regarding them. In your quote under my second answer, the word "everything" is really misplaced. No person with a positive IQ trust everything on TV.
Even when the positive IQ is between 0 and 1.
Was the German Army attacked every day on the Eastern Front ? No. But the truth still is, that they resisted to the Red Army in defensive for more than two years.
Was Great Britain attacked every single day after the fall of France in June 1940 ? No. But the truth still is, that Great Britain resisted alone for one year.
Was the Romanian Army attacked every day in 1917 ? No. But we can still claim that the Romanian soldiers stopped the Central Powers in Moldavia, for the whole year 1917.
|Posted by: Imperialist December 04, 2013 12:33 pm|
Aviation didn't have much of an impact on well built forts. At least not until later in the war when the US came up with huge bunker-busting bombs.
|Posted by: Radub December 04, 2013 02:40 pm|
To be pedantic, the first "bunker busters" were made by the British: Google "Tallboy" and "Grand Slam".
When I say "aviation" I mean everything to do with aviation, not just dropping bombs and not necessarily "planes" either. That means baloons, planes, zeppelins, artillery spotting, scouting, transport of supplies, transport of personnel, gliders, dropped munitions and paratroops.
The first impact made by aviation in WW1 was to direct artillery fire and assess its effectiveness as it happened - first from tethered baloons, later from planes. That made artillery fire immensely more effective. By the end of the war, planes could carry tons of explosive straight to the enemy in one go from a range and in a manner never available to artillery up to that point.
But the biggest impact was psychological. Any fool can understand that there is no point in building a wall as a means a defence when a plane can fly over it.
And "bunker busters" are not essential. Google "Eben Emael" to see what "aviation" can do to forts without a single "bunker buster".
This remonds me of that stupid sign of "bellows camera crossed with a red line" in all Romanian train stations meaning "no spying". Two words: Google Earth.
|Posted by: Imperialist December 04, 2013 06:14 pm|
I don't have to google Eben Emael, it's a well known example. But that didn't make forts obsolete, just prompted the defenders to watch out for surprise attacks of that sort and prepare to repel them. I am not aware of any other attacks like that on forts in WWII.
I am not sure the use of airplanes as spotters was a must when using heavy artillery fire on fixed fortifications. Maybe it was in some cases, but artillery could have handled that job without the air element too. I don't see aviation as the game changer in this.
In my opinion aviation became a real game changer on its own when it was able to pack a punch strong and accurate enough to render fortifications very vulnerable.
|Posted by: Radub December 04, 2013 06:57 pm|
Yeah, pretty much what I was saying... The only difference is what you understand by "packing a punch".
"Aviation" is not limited to some winged object that delivers bombs.
|Posted by: MMM December 04, 2013 10:18 pm|
I put the darn link exactly to be as clear as posssible! FNB is Focşani-Nămoloasa-Brăila, whereas FNG is Focşani-Nămoloasa-Galaţi. What Bucharest ring?
Re: believable documentaries: yeah, sometimes there are new and interesting things in them, but sometimes they are just simplifying facts(over-simplifying, IMHO) and presenting with a pretty biased vision.
I tend to trust more the books, because it is not that easy to write a (good) book, especially one that would be reviewed by some (other) guys with expertise. For example, look no further than our forum and the neverending feud among Vrinceanu and fratello / cainele franctiror etc.)
Thanks for the wishes, anyway - and may the magic of the holidays be upon us all!
[edited by admin]
|Posted by: Florin December 05, 2013 12:19 am|
So I understood the abbreviations correctly.
Now, returning to previous posts:
Your last words above: "I DO remember it was begun in XIX-th century..." made me thinking that who knows, maybe those letters are initials for the forts around Bucharest.
What sense would make to start building fortifications lines along Focsani - Namoloasa - Galati in XIX-th century ? For the Tsarist / Russian Empire, meaning the abandoning of Moldavia and relying only on Wallachia ? It looks like WWI in reverse / in mirror .
* * * * *
[edited by admin]
|Posted by: MMM December 05, 2013 08:13 am|
| Re: FNB/FNG line: if you look at a map, you will see that it was the only natural defense line which could be held against vastly superior forces. Before the apparition of air forces, that is... Look at the plan of attacking forces of the Red Army in 1940 and see the ”pinchers” movement. The same thing could have happened at any moment - let`s not forget that Romania (under Carol I) was allied with Germany and not with Russia
[edited by admin]
|Posted by: Victor December 05, 2013 09:14 am|
|MMM, it is not acceptable to insinuate, even for rhaetorical reasons, such things regarding other forum members.|
|Posted by: Radub December 09, 2013 06:55 pm|
The FNG line is along the rivers Milcov and Siret, which if you may recall from your history books marked the border between Wallachia and Moldova.
in 1885, the United Principalities were not yet independent of the Otoman Empire, so maybe they were preparing for a future war of independence.
|Posted by: MMM December 09, 2013 07:42 pm|
Are you sure?!?!
IIRC, the "Independence War" was in 1877/78, Romania was declared (proclaimed) kingdom in 1881; the main reason for the FNB/FNG line in late XIX-th century was a possible Russian advance along the same lines as in 1877.
|Posted by: Radub December 09, 2013 09:14 pm|
| Sorry, my mistake. I was not paying enough attention to the years.
But the Milcov-Siret tracing the border line between the Principalities is still valid.
|Posted by: MMM December 10, 2013 07:00 am|
|Of course it is, but the fact remains that the original FNB line was initially designed against the Russians.|
|Posted by: Radub December 10, 2013 08:36 am|
Well... It is a line separating two sides. In one direction was Russia and in the other direction was the Ottoman Empire. Both had "interests". However, overall, tsarist Russia was actually quite "friendly" to Romania at the time, it was an ally in the War of Independence, a friend during the Treaty of Berlin and later an ally in WW1.
|Posted by: Victor December 24, 2013 01:20 pm|
|A number of posts were split into a new topic: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=6816|
|Posted by: MMM December 28, 2013 06:46 am|
|Unfortunately, Carol II did not really "like" fortifications; he said they look like "concrete mousetraps" or something very much on the verge of claustrophobia - and thus a reason for not hurrying thier construction when we had the time and manpower for it (after 1935, that is...); my 2 cents about this: the great "affairs" could not be done with fortifications (like with some other expensive, imported weapons) and Carol II (plus his gang) lost the interest towards those. Regardless, Romania would have accepted the Soviet ultimatum even if we DID have a couple of hundreds of pillboxes ready on the Dniester.|