Kinky, ain't it?
The CO used to kick/spank Ceausescu or the other way around?
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army at War > Corporal punishment |
| Posted by: dragos April 28, 2004 08:31 pm |
| Shameful practices in the Romanian Army:
On 30 June 1941, from the order of the commanding officer of 1/2 Vanatori Regiment, corporal punishments were sentenced upon the ranks of 11th Company, which failed to resist in the Bogdanesti bridgehead. On 14 August 1941, by the general directive 113 of war minister, General Iosif Iacobici, the corporal punishment is officially instituted, for dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty. The sentence was the flogging up to 25 hits, in the attendance of medical personnel and all the equal and higher ranks in the unit. |
| Posted by: Dr_V April 28, 2004 09:43 pm |
| Well, it is nasty, but for the times and situation then it wasn't such a big deal. Just try comparing this corporal punishment with what the German or Russian soldiers faced: a quick Court Martial trial (sometimes not even that) and a death penalty, sometimes for insignificant reasons. An offence like "cowerdness in front of the enemy" or "mistakes leading to the defeat" was a direct ticket towards the fiering squad in other armys.
Even if it was shamefull (from our point of view, as modern citisens in a relatively peacefull and normal world; in the 40s the views were much different), if it was working I guess it wasn't such a bad idea after all. About all armys of the time had corporal punishment well established, thaugh for "dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty" in many cases the conseqences were far more severe. |
| Posted by: dragos April 29, 2004 12:07 am |
| It seems we are condemned to compare ourselves either with the Germans or the Soviets. Why not with the French? Or the British? Of course, executing the soldiers for retreating when the enemy attacked is absurd and worthy of a totalitarian regime as the Nazi or Soviet. Then why should we justify such a punitive measure, encountered most often in medieval age? :nope: |
| Posted by: Dénes April 29, 2004 12:38 am |
| I've heard from a Luftwaffe pilot that some Rumanian Air Force officers did occasionally hit their adjoutants with the riding stick they carried around most of the time (such corporal punishment was not used in the Luftwaffe - according to that veteran German pilot officer). This was confirmed to me by an ARR officer pilot too.
One such officer notorious for roughing up his subordinates reportedly was Cpt. av. Lucian Toma. |
| Posted by: Korne April 29, 2004 05:36 pm |
| The corporal punishment is mentioned by von Manstein in his book "Lost victories" as one of the "old practices" (used in the Romanian Army), which didn't improve the quality of the troops. He also mentions the lack of skilled and well-trained NCOs as a necessary link between the low ranks and the commissioned officers.
In my opinion, the corporal punishment was the result of the big educational and cultural gap between the soldiers (mainly peasants or lower-class citizens) and the COs (mainly university graduates). The absence of a solid middle-class in Romania reflected these circumstances. (And it still is a major drawback of the today's Romanian society, don't you agree?) The corporal punishment is still practiced: I have a friend who is officer in the Navy - and he told me some of the recruits were so stupid or stubborn (or both) that he had to beat them to make them understand his orders or what is the meaning of the army discipline. I don't agree with his methods - but I wasn't in his place, so I cannot really judge him. However, the difference between the current situation and what happened during WW2 is that the corporal punishment nowadays is "off the record" and it is not the result of official army regulations or orders. |
| Posted by: Dr_V April 29, 2004 07:53 pm |
| Corporal punishment can be extremely usefull in an army, but only if propperly implemented. As I've read, in WW2 Romanian Army this method was not propperly used and was also abused of. There's a thin line between the effective and the abusive way of doing that.
As an example, if a soldier fled during the battle when his comrades stayed and fought, a few wips in a public display will only awake sentiments of shame (in the punished coward) and pride and comradery between the rest of the troops. But if you let a violent officer to hit a man everytime he's anoyed or wants to feel important, than you get the opposite effect, the troops will feel they're treated without respect. For such measures to be effectively used, the law should have stated that only the Court Martial can give such punishments, to avoid unpropper interpretations by the violent officers. And also the same law should have established penaltys for the officers disregarding it, so giving the troops the certainty that they received a fair treatment. You know, those ideas weren't hached by me, I've based this post on the rules applied in the American Army during WW1 period, as I've read on a history site. |
| Posted by: C-2 April 29, 2004 08:37 pm |
| Not long ago I wrote about an army officer who was N.Ceausecsu's co,and use to kick him in the ass all the time :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: and to spank him :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: |
| Posted by: C-2 April 29, 2004 08:46 pm |
| A teacher of mine,who had his military service between the wars,told me that some of the recruts,generaly peasants ,were so stupid and ignorant ,that could not tell between left and right...
The co use to put in their left boot "paie"(I need a translation here...) and in the right boot fan.And instead of "left/right/left /right,he'd say:paie/fan/paie /fan.... Also some oficers were very hard on those guys and beeting was a way of life. He told me about a case(he served in the artilery)that while practising cannon firing,one of the cannons was jammed,and wold'nt fire.A certain officer ,who was the most hated by the recruts due to his beatings,came to see what was wrong.One moment he looked into the barrel and suddenly the cannon fired..... It was catalogeted as an accident,but my teacher,Oswald Stadler,said he wasn't sure/// |
| Posted by: Korne April 29, 2004 09:33 pm |
| [quote]Not long ago I wrote about an army officer who was N.Ceausecsu's co,and use to kick him in the ass all the time :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: and to spank him :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:[/quote]
Kinky, ain't it? The CO used to kick/spank Ceausescu or the other way around? |
| Posted by: Korne April 29, 2004 09:34 pm |
| [quote]He told me about a case(he served in the artilery)that while practising cannon firing,one of the cannons was jammed,and wold'nt fire.A certain officer ,who was the most hated by the recruts due to his beatings,came to see what was wrong.One moment he looked into the barrel and suddenly the cannon fired.....
It was catalogeted as an accident,but my teacher,Oswald Stadler,said he wasn't sure///[/quote] This sounds like a Sven Hassel story  |
| Posted by: Dr_V April 29, 2004 10:07 pm |
| C-2: The translation is: "paie"= straws, "fan"= hay
If we're talking funny military storys about punishment in our army, I remember a patient my father treated some months ago. This patient was a sergeant employed in recruits training and he was a very short trmpered man. During a march, a recruit fell down from exhaustion and refused to stand up and continue marching. The sergeant was so enraged that he wanted to kick that soldier in the ass, but he slipped on the mud and fractured his ankle... |
| Posted by: Korne April 29, 2004 10:11 pm |
| According to this article from Adevărul, the military arrest (solitary confinement) as a disciplinary measure will be abolished:
http://www.adevarulonline.ro/index.jsp?page=articol§ion_id=1&article_id=80185 (in Romanian) |
| Posted by: Victor April 30, 2004 05:31 am |
| [quote]
On 14 August 1941, by the general directive 113 of war minister, General Iosif Iacobici, the corporal punishment is officially instituted, for dishonorable or grave mistakes regarding the military duty. The sentence was the flogging up to 25 hits, in the attendance of medical personnel and all the equal and higher ranks in the unit.[/quote] That is funny since he was the one who had forbidden this kind of punishments by Ordnance No. 95/21 July 1941 and even submitted penal complaints against several officers that applied such punishment. |
| Posted by: dragos April 30, 2004 04:33 pm |
| [quote]That is funny since he was the one who had forbidden this kind of punishments by Ordnance No. 95/21 July 1941 and even submitted penal complaints against several officers that applied such punishment.[/quote]
That's right. The minister, in his communiqué, gave the example of a captain which hit a soldier so hard, that he broke the lower jaw of the latter. The soldier required surgery :!: |
| Posted by: C-2 April 30, 2004 07:43 pm |
| Korne,The co of ceausescu still lives in Iasi...
At "those "years he was afraid he'll be arested for kicking the" leader". He was on Tv not long ago ,with pictures. Only that when ceausescu was cought stealing something,he saved him from jail.(I think he stole a ladies purce). About Oswald Stadler,I can write a book about his stories he told me. He was teaching 7 languges,had a degree in economics and the tipe of person you meet once in a life time.Belive me ,he wasn't telling bed time stories! He was living in Chernowitz and was sent to hard labor in Siberia for serving in the Romanian army.There he was recruted to the Soviet army and after healingfrom hepatitis he was the only surviver of his batalion at Kiev. |
| Posted by: Korne April 30, 2004 11:51 pm |
| [quote]Korne,The co of ceausescu still lives in Iasi...
At "those "years he was afraid he'll be arested for kicking the" leader". He was on Tv not long ago ,with pictures. Only that when ceausescu was cought stealing something,he saved him from jail.(I think he stole a ladies purce). About Oswald Stadler,I can write a book about his stories he told me. He was teaching 7 languges,had a degree in economics and the tipe of person you meet once in a life time.Belive me ,he wasn't telling bed time stories! He was living in Chernowitz and was sent to hard labor in Siberia for serving in the Romanian army.There he was recruted to the Soviet army and after healingfrom hepatitis he was the only surviver of his batalion at Kiev.[/quote] Sorry C-2 if you got me wrong, I wasn't pulling your leg, I believe both your stories - "spanking Ceausescu" just sounded funny and Oswald Stadler's story reminded me of some episodes from Sven Hassel's books. Although I think it didn't happen often, some COs or NCOs who maltreated their subordinates fell victim to "accidents". Going back to the first story: When did the "kicking/spanking incident" happen? As far I could get it from your posts, it must have happened during Ceausescu's "revolutionary" years (inter-war period). |
| Posted by: Carol I November 02, 2004 08:12 pm | ||
From the http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/thomas.htm of the Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion "Grossdeutschland":
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| Posted by: Iamandi November 03, 2004 07:13 am |
| In Romanian Army the corporal punishment was interdicted in 1888 or 1889 for the reason of courage and honour of romanian soldiers in Independence War. It is a shame to reintroduce this thing, in 1941 at debut of a new war. Iama |
| Posted by: dead-cat November 03, 2004 12:03 pm |
| not romanian army related, but the british armed forces really took their sweet time abolishing this shamefull practice. forbidden in most european armies since the napoleonic wars, the british army used corporal punishment extensively through the crimeean war all the way until 1956(!) when it was eventually abolished. |
| Posted by: Ruy Aballe November 10, 2004 01:45 pm | ||
| Well, unfortunately the British are not alone in this regard... The Portuguese and Spanish armies maintainted this practice until very late, at least till the Forties, and in some cases (more or less "off the record", as someone remarked about a recent situation in this thread), down to the 60's... At least until the late Thirties/early Forties, the main reasons for this sad state of affairs were very much the same mentioned by Korne:
A sizeable amount of recruits in both Iberian armies during the first half of the XX century were analphabet peasants (barely different in that and other regards from their forefathers who fought against the French in the Peninsular War...) and generally illiterate non-qualified workmen (the emergence of a middle-class, especially in Portugal, is much a post-war phenomenon). My grand-father used to recall how difficult it was to instill discipline and esprit d'corps to a bunch of peasants drawn from the highlands of Léon and Asturias... But in the end, discipline was quite high in the Spanish Army. Why? Because sometimes orders were "reinforced", so to say, by an heavy handed treatment of the personnel. But there were also other reasons explaining the use of corporal punishment... The Spaniards went through a brutal Civil War, and spent a hefty part of the century fighting Moroccan tribesmen in the Spanish Protectorate in Morocco, and a culture of violence was indeed part of the normal military life. In the case of the Portuguese, they had their last civil conflict in the XIX century, but the Colonial War fought from 1961 to 1974 was nasty enough to resurrect some "time-honoured traditions"... and the same spirit popped up again: some CO's were much more feared by their soldiers than the African guerrilas they're supposed to be fighting against. Stories of soldiers executed or fired upon without warning - nor even the slightest simulation of a martial court... - do exist. |
| Posted by: Iamandi November 10, 2004 02:21 pm |
| Hmmm! The way to be a "man"... You are forced to join the army (forced, because if you don't want, you breake country rules), and in case of... you are trowed to die under the flag. "Take some <<corporal punishments>> for a motivation increase!"  I dont know directly, but i heard storys from friends, neighbors... And you know wat i mean - "veterani" si "bibani"... Iama |
| Posted by: Victor October 06, 2005 01:19 pm |
| Order no. 21/30 September 1941 [...] 3 - I punish cap. Rosu with 25 hits on his back, because, when being sent with another two men to gather a telephone line, he was found sleeping at the line's end with his men. Col. C. Eftimiu |
| Posted by: AGC March 27, 2007 05:28 pm |
| I asked my 93 old uncle who was an artillery officer in the 8th Cavalery Division during the entire WW2, how was it possible to have such a punishment in the Romanian Army. The answer was short and it seems to have a logic: “It was not correct toward the troop to send the guilty soldier in a military jail when the war was still going on. The life in jail was like a Holliday comparative to the life in the first line where the troop was daily exposed to death. So we had no better election.” Of course he was against any kind of abuse. |
| Posted by: mabadesc March 27, 2007 07:24 pm | ||
I respectfully disagree with the above statement. If it is an ordered retreat, then I agree, even if it turns into a "sauve qui peut". But if you, as an officer of any rank, order an attack and instead you see your men throwing their weapons away and running in the opposite direction, then it's a totally different story. Or if in the course of a battle the artillery men abandon their cannons due to counter-battery fire - same thing. In my opinion, what makes such an act so serious is not the fact that a soldier turns and runs away out of fear, but that such an act is very contagious. The rest of the troops see this, and it's very tempting for some of the others to do the same thing. One such example took place in September-October 1944, around the Turda and Mures battles. The Romanian infantry was becoming complacent, they were relying on the artillery to do most of the work, the number of self-mutilations was getting really high, and some just abandoned their weapons and ran. I understand why you would want to run (it would probably be my first instinct as well), plus, at the time, many Romanian soldiers thought that the war was over after the 23 August events. They had low morale and elan - they realized that now they had to start fighting all over again. In addition, they were worried about their families, with the russians swarming and pillaging throughout the country, even though they were our allies. In any case, what happened was that, by special intervention to the Ministry of Justice, they changed the martial court capital punishment laws to expedite judgments and verdicts. As a result, martial courts were established close to the front lines, and for abandonment of equipment or self-mutilation, any C.O. - regimental or above - had the right to execute such deserters. One must realize also that the stakes were extremely high at that point in time: we were trying not only to help liberate and make sure that N. Transylvania was returned to Romania, but also we were hoping to gain co-belligerent status. It was hard to do either of these when Soviet generals were observing Romanian soldiers doing some of the things mentioned above. Overall, the troops fought very bravely, as you can read in all history books, but initially there was this tendency for complacency that had to be changed. Something had to be done to rectify the situation, and I think it was a correct decision, in my opinion. |
| Posted by: dragos March 27, 2007 08:16 pm |
| Well, there is always something to come up with in order to amend the faults of the leading (political) class, and incidentally the peasant-soldier has to pay for it. If the situation at that point was getting out of control, I can agree that it was a chain result of diplomatical failures that characterised Romanian leading class for a large period of time by then. What was next in case the situation was not rectified? Blocking detachments à la Red Army? |
| Posted by: mabadesc March 28, 2007 06:49 pm | ||
I agree that the situation stemmed from a complex series of diplomatic and political failures and unfortunately the peasant-soldier was the one who had to pay for it by fighting and by being sent into battle. War is usually the end result when diplomacy and politics fail.
I certainly would never be in favor of that. I suppose that if the situation cannot be rectified and becomes generalized, then as a country there is no other way than to give up, sue for peace, and accept the consequences. But the situation in September '44 was rectified with a series of steps: 1. Command Headquarters, up to Divisonal level, were moved up close to the front line so that officers could monitor and participate in the activity of the fighting troops. 2. All officers of any rank, including Staff officers (ofiteri de Stat Major) were ordered to live and participate among the fighting troops. 3. All officers who were not able to be in full control of their units were relieved of command. 4. The Military Tribunal (Curtea Martiala) was implemented and put into action close behind the front line. 5. A request was made (and approved) to activate and bring to the front all remaining capable officers, including Staff officers, who had not yet been assigned to fighting units and who were still operating in other regions of Romania. This was done in order to improve the overall quality of the fighting troops. 6. Equipping the troops with any weapons and especially transmission equipment they were lacking (this remained a problem mainly due to Soviet interference and to transporting issues). 7. More severe and faster punishments for deserters and soldiers deliberately abandoning their equipment. |
| Posted by: Victor November 18, 2007 07:55 am |
| While browsing through Pavel Moraru's Armata lui Stalin vazuta de romani, which despite its title also goes into reports of the Romanian Army intelligence on own and allied troops, one gets the notion how much this practice contributed to the lowering of morale on the Eatern Front during 1943 and 1944. Some soldiers went as far as declaring to the agent that they intended to kill the officer at the first action on the front. The beatings and the corruption (some officers and NCOs sold the soldiers rations and clothes on the black market) only further widened the gap between the lower and higher ranks at a time when good morale was an absolute must. in fact, in the cases in which the CO took good care of his men's morale was high even though the situation on the front was bad and they had been fighting for more than one year. |
| Posted by: Petre February 29, 2016 03:14 pm |
| Source - Net : Nota-raport a Secţiei speciale NKVD de la Frontul Stalingrad către Conducerea Secţiilor speciale ale NKVD URSS « Cu privire la disciplina şi starea moral-politică a armatei inamicului » 31 oct. 1942 Locţiitorului Comisarului poporului ptr. Afaceri interne al URSS, Comisar de securitatea statului rangul 3, tov. Abakumov Din materialele disponibile la Secţia specială NKVD de la Frontul Stalingrad, din declaraţiile prizonierilor, documentele capturate, relatările persoanelor venite din teritoriile ocupate, se stabilesc următoarele fapte care afectează disiplina şi starea moral politică la unele unităţi ale Armatei germane şi armatele aliaţilor ei. Armata germană În general disciplina soldaţilor germani poate fi numită foarte ridicată. Un rol deosebit în menţinerea disciplinei în armată îl joacă teama faţă de ofiţeri, pedepsele severe pentru abaterile minore. Totuşi în acelaşi timp, războiul, mai ales războiul în răsărit, a subminat considerabil disciplina în armata germană şi a făcut abaterile disciplinare izolate foarte frecvente. (…) Armatele aliaţilor Germaniei La trupele italiene, ungare şi române disciplina şi starea moral-politică sunt considerabil mai scăzute ca în armata germană. (…) La mijlocul lunii august Reg.5/Div.4 inf română a primit ordin să treacă la ofensivă. Cdt. regimentului a refuzat categoric să îndeplinească ordinul, legându-se de insuficienţa oamenilor. Regimentul a fost scos de pe poziţie şi retras o vreme în spate. În rândul soldaţilor români în special a proliferat dezertarea. Astfel, la Ketcener (RSSA Kalmîkă), unde nu există nicio garnizoană, apar adesea soldaţi români. Judecând după faptul că ei se ascund la apariţia nemţilor, se poate aprecia că aceştia sunt dezertori. Unul dintre dezertorii de la Reg. 5/Div. 4 inf română a fost prins şi a primit 25 lovituri de baston. De la Reg. 4 inf. rom. în iulie 1942 a dezertat un sanitar, ne găsit până acum. Soldatul G. D. (?) din Reg. 5 vânători / Div.1 română după ce a trecut termenul permisiei care i s-a dat în luna iulie, a hotărât să nu se mai întoarcă la unitate şi s-a ascuns în pădure. La scurtă vreme a fost observat de jandarmi, bătut şi trimis din nou pe front. De la acelaş regiment, pe când se aflau la Nikolaev, au dezertat doi soldaţi – ambii au fost prinşi şi împuşcaţi în faţa formaţiei. Doar de la o singură companie din Reg. 5 / Div. 4 inf română, în luna august au dezertat 7 soldaţi. În rândul soldaţilor români în special este larg răspândită starea de spirit anti-război. Prizonierul soldat Мarin Diaconu, de la Reg. 5 vânători/Div. 1 română, a declarat: “Soldaţii îi critică în şoaptă pe Hitler şi pe Antonescu. Оfiţerii ne-au promis că după război primim mult pământ în Transilvania şi în Ucraina, dar noi acum nu ne gândim la acel pământ, ci cum să mâncăm.” Disciplina în armata română este literalmente nuiaua : pentru cele mai mici vinovăţii soldatul este bătul cu brutalitate de toţi şefii, începând cu cei mici şi terminând cu cei mari. Pedepsirea soldaţilor vinovaţi cu 25 - 30 lovituri de baston este un fenomen obişnuit în armata română. Maiorul Năsturescu, de la Reg. 2 artilerie / Div. 4 inf. l-a bătut pe subordonatul său soldatul B… Atitudinea germanilor faţă de aliaţii lor români este umilitoare. În luna iulie soldatul Ion Iacob de la Reg. 2 artilerie / Div. 4 inf. a fost lovit de primii germani întâlniţi pentru că mergea cu căruţa pe partea stângă a drumului. Unul dintre prizonieri a relatat că în vara acestui an germanii care au venit să se scalde i-au scos din râu pe soldaţii români… Atunci când intră în localităţi, germanii îşi opresc pentru 2-3 soldaţi cele mai bune izbe, iar pe români i-au trimins până la o companie într-o curte. Toate astea crează ura soldaţilor pentru germani. Adesea se poate auzi de la români ca şi de la unguri : “La prima lovitură serioasă a Armatei Roşii lăsăm totul şi fugim. Să lupte Hitler şi cu Antonescu.” În acest timp “aliaţii” nu rămân în urma germanilor cu jafurile şi abuzurile asupra localnicilor…. În satele de la sud-vest de Stalingrad populaţia se plânge în special de purtarea românilor, care literalmente se ţin după toate femeile. Faptele prezentate dovedesc despre descompunerea morală si semnele de declin al disciplinei armatei hitleriste şi aliaţilor ei. Selivanovski |
| Posted by: Elvetian March 02, 2016 11:49 am |
| Everybodu who had leading functions in military or private does know that corporal punishment is simply lack of leadership qualities. I know from my military time that whatever stupidity had to be done, it worked only with motivation and communication. Others tryed the punishment method in form of not going out in town in the free evening. They badly failed. While those troops had to exercice at the time others were in the bars/pubs and having fun, they did everything wrong by purpose. It needs just one soldier with leadership qualities to convince a whole platoon to do only bullshit. Some officers still today do not understand who has the longer arm and more power. And this has nothing to do with discipline, but with respect, motivation, communication and quality as a leader to lead. |