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|WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Brand new romanian assault rifle?|
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 09, 2012 10:24 pm|
Obviously almost all newspapers felt obliged to publish nonsense images (that do not seem to have any connection with the actual weapon!) but the question persists: will it be an original product, as written, or on inspired "Westernized" one, like many modified (upgarded) AKMs, used for instance in Irak or Afghanistan? It remains to be seen...
|Posted by: 21 inf April 10, 2012 06:23 am|
|It is said in another article that is an "original 100%" romanian idea based on ... AKM ))|
|Posted by: Hadrian April 10, 2012 07:55 pm|
| Basically it is a AK type assault rifle but with the caliber changed to the 5,56mm NATO standard and polymer stock, Picatiny rails maybe etc.
Anyway the AK system is very rugged.
The weapon in the picture is something else
|Posted by: contras April 14, 2012 01:47 pm|
| Could be this one?
|Posted by: Victor April 14, 2012 03:06 pm|
I don't think it is that important really if it is 100 % brand new design or not. What it matters is for it to function properly and to be manufactured in Romania, generating revenue and taxes here.
|Posted by: Petre April 14, 2012 04:56 pm|
It is interesting what the people wrote on the forums below those textes.
|Posted by: Dénes April 14, 2012 07:05 pm|
And no foreign licence to be infringed, I may add.
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 14, 2012 07:30 pm|
Indeed Victor, agree with you! But a question arises: if its not a completely new weapon then for what is the need to be adopted? Is the current weapon PA md.1986 not enough for what we face in the theaters of operations where we have troops? I see the need for equipping all existing weapons with day/night sighting systems, other electronic systems but I also see as not necessary to adopt a new weapon right now! Especially if is not a radically changed weapon, a high-tech one! It's just an opinion!
Contras, thanks for the photo! My opinion is that the ref picture in question is that it looks somehow similar to the IMI Galil combined with FN FNC... in any case a design totally unimpressive and a weapon out of actual trends ... hope it's not that!
|Posted by: Radub April 14, 2012 09:09 pm|
Having a locally-made weapon means a local/reliable/independent chain of supply and ease of servicing/repair/replacement which are essential in case of conflict. It also means jobs and the money stays in the country.
|Posted by: Ferdinand April 15, 2012 05:37 am|
like russian truck based on Ford, like the USA original rockets based on german savants...see 21inf...Romania is entering in the game.
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 15, 2012 07:55 am|
I understand perfectly the need for local produced arms, from rapid order and delivery posibility when the guns needed most and continuing with jobs and money that remains in the country! Obviously I agree with that, but it does not mean to produce a new weapon that does not bring much (in performance or technology) in addition to the existing weapon, the PA md.1986 cal.5,45mm. also produced in our country!
I belief f.i. that the money spent on this would be more useful in the production or acquisition of other systems, which are much more deficient -f.i. day/night sights for every trooper rifle or something like this. I also understand the need to use the same caliber by the automatic rifles as NATO troopers did but but I don't think the situation or ammunition is so problematic to impose the adoption of a new weapon! Its only an opinion anyway, the decision is not ours!
|Posted by: Radub April 15, 2012 08:11 am|
| No shame, no scandal. The AK47 was strongly influenced by the Stg44. The American M60 is stronly influenced by the MG42. The principle is the same, only the manufacturing differed. In fact, there are only a handful of operating principles for guns, and none are straying too far from Hiram Maxim's idea. Most "innovations" in the recent years have concentrated on aesthetics, materials, safety and ergonomics. What made the AKM so good and so long-lived was its reliability, simplicity and ease of construction. It is not a bad start.
You MUST remember that a gun is a very basic weapon - the main "job" is done by the explosion inside the cartridge that propels the round down the barrel. The job of the "gun" is simply to aim the round in the right direction and replenish the cartridges. In other words: shoot, reload, repeat cycle. Aim better, reload faster, and do all that repeatedly without fail. Those first two parameters, aiming and reloading, have been perfected to the highest point possible. So, what manufacturers are looking for now is reliability. They all strive to simplify the mechanism, use fewer moving parts and make the lot cheaper. It is highly unlikely that the Romanian engineers discovered a new way to fire/reload a gun, so it stands to reason that they used what they knew when they designed this gun. They did not invent "mersul pe jos", they just designed new shoes.
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 15, 2012 08:53 am|
|Obviously I agree with you, but probably in the subconscious of some decision makers the aesthetics of a weapon seem to matter, at least sometimes... F.I. the russians didn't adopt a highly valued weapon at a time Nikonov AN-94, maybe also because it was very different from what they know and used so far the AK-47/M/-74 etc., but are ready to adopt the old-new Kalashnikov AK-12, which is not very different from the old AK-series. The Nikonov was appreciated but... it looks ugly, I remember reading a declaration of former Defence Minister Pavel Grachev... maybe the reasons were different but... it's interesting his oppinion!|
|Posted by: Victor April 15, 2012 09:59 am|
The problem with the PA model 1986 is the calibre. Romania has been part of NATO for a while now and it is only normal to start using the standard NATO calibre of 5.56 mm. I suspect it eases supply and logistics for troops operating within integrated multi-national brigades overseas.
|Posted by: Radub April 15, 2012 11:20 am|
Price always goes before looks or even reliability when it comes to government purchases.
Think of the Chauchat. It was cheap, so it was ordered in massive amounts, but the performance was abysmal. Even when told that it was useless, the governments kept purchasing it because it was cheap.
Think of the FP-45 pistol. Worst idea of all times. Cheap as chips. One million made.
|Posted by: udar April 15, 2012 12:34 pm|
I dont think so, that seem to be some German HK G-36 rifles
More probably to be something along this line (this is Cugir made rifles exported in US and slightly modified there). Ofcourse, is just my supposition, it may be something totally different ofcourse
AK is not bad at all, if they work a little to ergonomy and put some good solid optic devices on it too it will be still one of the best rifles around. Simple, very reliable, good accuracy, local made, quite light (or similar with other assault rifles) and even short size to carry with a folding stock.
The main change will be probably the cartridge, the new rifle will be in 5,56x45 mm calibre. Not as good as 5,45x39 mm i think, with some advantages and disadvantages over 7,62x39 mm, but well, is the main calibre used in NATO
|Posted by: Iamandi April 15, 2012 02:52 pm|
As usual... he wears the fez on his foot, to say so. But if he impaled himself with that, let's smile a little more: here are my pics from the testing range with one of the new assault rifle from Cugir: http://www.resboiu.ro/2012/04/15/poze-de-la-testele-cu-noua-pusca-de-asalt-de-la-cugir/http://www.resboiu.ro/2012/04/15/poze-de-la-testele-cu-noua-pusca-de-asalt-de-la-cugir/
|Posted by: ANDREAS April 15, 2012 03:07 pm|
|Iamandi the gun you posted would not really be something new as they claim, its a PA md.86 with elements of the PM md.90 and inspiration after IMI Galil ... with updated elements from other rifles... but, I admit I like it! Hope the future automatic rifle would resemble more with this, than with the one posted earlier... who looks different, more distant of his AK origins... but somehow outdated and ugly for my taste...|
|Posted by: Iamandi May 21, 2012 06:26 am|
| No, i only posted some pictures with me and one HK G-36 airsoft replica.
But if you want to see me with the real brand new romanian assault rifle...
... and some more pictures here:
|Posted by: udar May 22, 2012 08:50 pm|
Thanks for pics Iamandi
And well, they keep the AK platform, which is a good one, the most reliable in existance for now.
They put ambidextrous comands, a good point, as well a reinforced cover with a top rail which is not totally removable. This is another good point.
They can put the back sights more behind, near to the end of top cover or rail, i hope they will do that with the final product.
And they will work a bit to weight, i think is a bit heavy. I mean, the rifle i posted in the previous post and which is made by the same Cugir (but is in 7.62x39 caliber) i understand have just around 2.73 kg empty. I hope they will reduce the weight to the new rifle around 3.5 kg maybe.
I know it have a longer barrel (needed for smaller calibres which depend on velocity more then "heavier bullets) but still i think they reduce somehow the weight.
The optic looks good, IOR is one of the best in the world, well, in top there at least, i am sure is a very good scope. Not sure however how much it costs and how many rifles will have that optic scope attached
|Posted by: ANDREAS May 23, 2012 08:09 pm|
|Many thanks Iamandi! I must admit that I have exceeded my initial skepticism, and I like the new weapon at least in appearance... must see also the weapon characteristics! But thanks to you we have a starting point of this topic!|
|Posted by: Victor May 26, 2012 07:03 am|
|I think the looks are not that important. Reliability and functionality are more important. They should equip the battalion stationed in Afghanistan with it and see how it fares in day-to-day operations.|
|Posted by: Petre May 26, 2012 08:48 am|
| Usually, the troops go on the front with weapons they know very well how they shoot.
On the other hand, in Afghanistan they do not really shoot.