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> Myth of Tigers in Romanian Use
PanzerKing
Posted: April 08, 2010 03:42 pm
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I just read "The German Defeat in the East 1944-45" from Stackpole by Samuel W. Mitcham. The book seems very well researched and I really enjoyed it. There is however one part that I find interesting and probably incorrect about the battle for Bucharest:

Page 181, 3rd paragraph

"By 10:30 A.M., the Luftwaffe buildings within the city were surrounded and under fire, and Gerstenberg had been halted by Romanian armored units, some of which were equipped with PzKw VI Tiger tanks."

I know that some Tigers were destroyed by the Romanians and possibly captured and turned over to the Russians, but I thought that was later on during the fighting in Transylvania, Hungary and Austria etc.

This is wrong, is it not?
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Agarici
Posted: April 08, 2010 04:26 pm
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This one is indeed quite a recurring myth about the Romanian army. But are there any data about its origin? Were there any known/documented planned Pz. V and/or Pz. VI deliveries for the Romanians from Germany during mid-1944?
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Alexei2102
Posted: April 08, 2010 06:20 pm
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QUOTE (Agarici @ April 08, 2010 04:26 pm)
This one is indeed quite a recurring myth about the Romanian army. But are there any data about its origin? Were there any known/documented planned Pz. V and/or Pz. VI deliveries for the Romanians from Germany during mid-1944?

Absolutely none. No Tigers nor Panther were delivered to the Romanian Army.

LE - I am referring to the 1941 - 1944 period, of course.

This post has been edited by Alexei2102 on April 08, 2010 06:35 pm
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MMM
  Posted: April 08, 2010 06:35 pm
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QUOTE (PanzerKing @ April 08, 2010 03:42 pm)
I just read "The German Defeat in the East 1944-45" from Stackpole by Samuel W. Mitcham. The book seems very well researched and I really enjoyed it. There is however one part that I find interesting and probably incorrect about the battle for Bucharest:

Page 181, 3rd paragraph

"By 10:30 A.M., the Luftwaffe buildings within the city were surrounded and under fire, and Gerstenberg had been halted by Romanian armored units, some of which were equipped with PzKw VI Tiger tanks."

I know that some Tigers were destroyed by the Romanians and possibly captured and turned over to the Russians, but I thought that was later on during the fighting in Transylvania, Hungary and Austria etc.

This is wrong, is it not?

Perhaps they mistakenly saw in action the last mohicans aka FT-17! :P They are so easy to be confounded with Tigers (by blind, deaf and stoopid people, of course).
There was a discussion, on this forum, about Panthers being sold (probably) to the Romanian Armed Forces by the Red Army, after the war...
I have no knowledge of any other armour in our army more advanced than P-IVH anyway!
Later edit:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?sh...5387&hl=panther

This post has been edited by MMM on April 08, 2010 06:56 pm
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dead-cat
Posted: April 08, 2010 08:16 pm
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i saw parts of a journal of a soldier of the 7th SS. he claims to have seen several bulgarian tigers.
apparently every german tank was a tiger and every russian a T-34. most soldiers never saw a tiger and i really doubt they could tell a tiger from a Pz. IV from a distance.
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C-2
Posted: April 08, 2010 08:49 pm
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I agree.
Even Otto CArius et comp. sometimes mistaken the Tiger 2 with an IS.
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ANDREAS
Posted: April 08, 2010 08:55 pm
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Greetings for all and 'Christ is risen'!
From my point of view it is an obvious mistake, since no romanian (or even german) unit on the romanian front had Tiger heavy tanks in august 1944! But, about mistakes, it is not unusual to happen : in the book Romania in al doilea razboi mondial -vol.II written by Constantin I. Kiritescu (Ed. Univers Enciclopedic Bucuresti 1995), on page 122 -Romanian Armoured Division fightings -is written -"in the second half of October [1942] the Division was brought back to 'hibernation' in Morozovsk region, where was the command post of the 3rd Romanian Army; here was fill the material with 24 tanks of the type Tiger, and continued with human instruction [...]". This information was not completely false, how long our Armored Division had indeed received 24 tanks from Germany -12 Pz.IIIN (75mm short gun) and 12 Pz.IVG (75mm long gun).
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Florin
Posted: April 09, 2010 02:03 am
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Few years ago I had found on a website information that two Tiger I abandoned for lack of fuel were captured by the Romanians, then confiscated from them by the Russians. That was in October 1944.

Well, like anything found on Internet, it is up to you. This does not make the printed books better - in "Hitler, King Carol and Marshall Antonescu", by a German historian, it is mentioned in the book that some Germans were complaining that it was hard for them to keep their positions around Bucharest, because the Romanians were attacking them with Tiger I recently got from Germany.
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MMM
  Posted: April 09, 2010 11:27 am
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QUOTE (Florin @ April 09, 2010 02:03 am)
Well, like anything found on Internet, it is up to you. This does not make the printed books better - in "Hitler, King Carol and Marshall Antonescu", by a German historian, it is mentioned in the book that some Germans were complaining that it was hard for them to keep their positions around Bucharest, because the Romanians were attacking them with Tiger I recently got from Germany.

Where is that mentioned? I've read the book very carefully and I cannot remember such a claim! Could you be more specific, please? (page - or, at least, chapter, as some versions might have other page numbering)
BTW, the name of that historian is Andreas Hillgruber and he was a reputed historian in this particular matter (Romanian-German relationship during WW2). And that book was a reference book on this subject for decades (and still is, as noone did anything else better, or at least similar).

This post has been edited by MMM on April 09, 2010 11:30 am
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Agarici
Posted: April 09, 2010 06:49 pm
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As far as I'm concerned, it's clear that there were no Tigers and Panters delivered by the Germans to the Romanian army. What I was wondering about (and the more narrow scope of my question above) was the source of this myth: were there any planned deliveries, which might have been canceled by the 23 August events?

About possible over-statings, for example Klaus Schonherr in his Luptele Wermachtului in Romania. 1944 (The fightings of Wermacht in Romania. 1944)is mentioning, at page 141, as the main cause for the failure of the German (24-26 August) counter-strike to the Romanian coup the existence, in the North of Bucharest, of Gen. Rozin detachment, including a force of 50 (!) tanks. Isn't this figure rather an exageration?
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MMM
Posted: April 09, 2010 08:44 pm
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To answer shortly: no, I don't think the Wehrmacht planned to dispense of some of its top tanks to some ally.
And: yes, it seems exagerated; I'll look more into that and follow with a better answer.
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Florin
Posted: April 10, 2010 01:44 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ April 09, 2010 06:27 am)

Where is that mentioned? I've read the book very carefully and I cannot remember such a claim! Could you be more specific, please? (page - or, at least, chapter, as some versions might have other page numbering)
BTW, the name of that historian is Andreas Hillgruber and he was a reputed historian in this particular matter (Romanian-German relationship during WW2). And that book was a reference book on this subject for decades (and still is, as noone did anything else better, or at least similar).

I do not have the book with me. My Romanian version of the book is in Bucharest. I read it years ago. That is why I did not remember the name of the German author. However, I am standing behind my claim and I am backing it. For now, if you do not have time to look into the book, consider it an unsettled matter.
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Florin
Posted: April 10, 2010 01:46 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ April 09, 2010 03:44 pm)
To answer shortly: no, I don't think the Wehrmacht planned to dispense of some of its top tanks to some ally.
And: yes, it seems exagerated; I'll look more into that and follow with a better answer.

They gave few to Hungary in October 1944.
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MMM
Posted: April 10, 2010 05:29 am
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Right... How many top tanks did they give to their last ally? By October '44, the shortage of fuel was so great that if the Hungarians were going to supply thos tanks by themselves, it was a "gain" for the Wehrmacht... :(
And these are anyway presumtions - we don't know (and we never will) what did the Germans think back then; we "only" see some of the results, some of the decisions made.
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Agarici
Posted: April 10, 2010 06:58 am
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QUOTE (MMM @ April 10, 2010 05:29 am)
Right... How many top tanks did they give to their last ally? By October '44, the shortage of fuel was so great that if the Hungarians were going to supply thos tanks by themselves, it was a "gain" for the Wehrmacht... :(
And these are anyway presumtions - we don't know (and we never will) what did the Germans think back then; we "only" see some of the results, some of the decisions made.


In terms of potential, a "few" Tigers with well traied crews could make a big difference, especially with proper infantry, artillery of assault aircraft support. Actually on several occasions they've made a difference even without much backing.
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