Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



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> Suggestion: Romanian Nationaly Symbol, for main site, WorldWar2.ro
Ardee
Posted: October 02, 2008 06:37 pm
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I've just spent a frustrating half-hour on the Internet, searching for an image of the red-yellow-blue Romanian cross insignia, as used on AFVs, etc. I wanted to post such in another forum, where the topic came up. I found a long-armed version, but I wanted to find a short-armed version as well -- i.e., the one that appears in the tabs of my Browser (Firefox) when visiting this site. I thought for SURE WorldWar2.ro would have one posted SOMEWHERE: but if so, I couldn't find it.

So, I would like to suggest WorldWar2.ro add a page, perhaps in its Media section, that would provide examples of the various nationality markers used during WWII by the Romanian armed forces. And maybe a little text explaining the history of the insignia? For example, I think, but am not sure, that the cross is properly known as a St Micheal's Cross, and it would be nice to know both for sure, and WHY this particular emblem was chosen. I think I've seen it both in color and as a simplified mono-chromatic outline on the side of AFVs and aircraft...why the variation? etc.

Perhaps discussion of the topic is so basic that it may simply have been overlooked? But it would, to me anyway, seem to fit naturally into the mission of WorldWar2.ro. And, I suppose, it (the proposed new page/section) could grow to include unit badges, etc., as well, if the interest exists. I think models would have a keen interest in that, and it is certainly part of History....

Anyway, I'll post the one symbol I did find in the "Romanian Army at War" Forum Topic; I'd like to suggest it be made into a sticky, lest it quickly get buried? I believe I have a copy of the shorter-arm version on another computer, and I'll eventually remember to post that one up as well, if someone doesn't beat me to it. Regardless, I hope a page will be created on the main site as well...
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Victor
Posted: October 03, 2008 04:17 pm
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Yes, that is indeed a good idea. However, in order to put the information on the website, we need an originally designed King Michael's Cross, not something from the Internet.
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Ardee
Posted: October 03, 2008 04:55 pm
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Hi Victor! Ok...what's required to get such? I thought the web site had some connection to the National Military Museum; surely they must have such? I'd be happy to write a letter requesting such, but my experience with over seas mail indicates that may take months for a single exchange. I'd need a better understanding of what you mean by an originally de-signed cross, however. How would it be different from any cross that appeared on a government/military document of the time? Or, if you live close enough, is this something you'd be willing to do? Let me know!
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Victor
Posted: October 05, 2008 02:10 pm
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By originally designed I mean a proper illustration done from scratch by someone who knows what one's doing. I'll see who I can ask to help with.
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Radub
Posted: October 05, 2008 02:47 pm
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The tricolour cockade was always the symbol of the Romanian Aeronautics/Military Aviation. Even when it was placed in the middle of a cross or a star, the tricolour cockade was always there.

The roundels were simple. They were a tricolour cockade with a red ring on the outside, a yellow ring in the middle and a blue disk in the center. Sizes varied depending on aircraft. As a loose rule, on fighters aircraft they were all the same size (on wings and fuselage), usually around 1000mm in diameter.

Crosses were more complex. They were never called St.Michael's Cross. The crosses represented the royal seal of the king. The real name was "Cifra Regala a Regelui Mihai 1 al Romanilor" (Royal Seal of King Michael the 1st of Romanians). This was a yellow cross bordered by 4 blue "M"s with the tricolour cockade in the centre.
I will try to put together a small list of crosses and designs. The truth of the matter is that there was never a single design. There were literally tens of variations and design changes, but as I said before, the only thing that stayed the same was the tricolour cockade in the centre of the cross.
Dimensions changed a lot. Even on fighters, where they were supposed to be around 1000mm in width/height, they were of varying sizes and designs.

During the war years, the insignia was as follows:
- September 1939 - June 1941, while Romania was not involved in the war yet, the national marking was the roundel.
- June 1941 - August 1944, while Romania was involved in the war on the Axis side, the national marking was the King Michael Cross.
- Auigust 1944 - May 1945, while Romania was involved in the war on the Allied side, the national marking was the roundel.

I hope this helps a bit.
Radu

This post has been edited by Radub on October 05, 2008 03:02 pm
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Dénes
Posted: October 05, 2008 03:39 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ October 05, 2008 08:47 pm)
During the war years, the insignia was as follows:
- September 1939 - June 1941, while Romania was not involved in the war yet, the national marking was the roundel.
- June 1941 - August 1944, while Romania was involved in the war on the Axis side, the national marking was the King Michael Cross.
- Auigust 1944 - May 1945, while Romania was involved in the war on the Allied side, the national marking was the roundel.

Actually, the so-called 'Michael's Cross' was introduced in May 1941, while the roundels were reintroduced in Sept. 1944.

Gen. Dénes
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Radub
Posted: October 05, 2008 06:47 pm
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Thanks for the clarifications, Denes.
Radu
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bansaraba
Posted: October 05, 2008 11:32 pm
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Are these information correct: http://www.crwflags.net/fotw/flags/ro%5Eair.html ?
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Radub
Posted: October 06, 2008 08:39 am
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The roundel seems fine.

The star has a yellow edge, which is not correct - it was either blue or white. Also, the points of the star are too sharp, the angle should be less acute and thus make the centre wider for a wider cockade.

The cross may be correct for a limited number of aircraft, but I think the M's are a tad too wide.

I was trying to figure out a way of cataloguing the crosses according to type and year, but that alone is a minefield. Just to give you an idea, of four Bf109s flown by Bazu Cantacuzino, none had the same type of cross - there were variations in size, thickness of the line in the blue M, angle and tip of the M, width of the white edge, etc. The more I look at it, the more I think that this subject can make an interesting subject for a whole chapter in a book.

Radu
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bansaraba
Posted: October 06, 2008 01:46 pm
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Well, I don't think the cross of King Michael had standard dimensions prescribed. However, the roundel did:

http://www.crwflags.net/fotw/flags/ro-1948m.html#emb

The stars I've seen on airplanes usually didn't follow the prescribed diameters, but always had the same point angles (so that opposed star arms would be at 180 degrees).

This post has been edited by bansaraba on October 06, 2008 01:55 pm
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Radub
Posted: October 06, 2008 02:48 pm
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bansaraba,
That link does not lead to anything to do with the star national markings used on RoAF aircraft. There is info on the insignia and ensigns/banners, but nothing about the stars painted on aircraft.
I am not trying to start a fight here. Stars on the RoAF aircraft were seldom "straight". Please have a look at this photos posted on this forum in this recent thread:
Let the Aviators Fly
The middle photo is a bit clearer.
Try to find the book "Avioane Reactive in Culorile Fortelor Aseriene ale Romaniei" by Valeriu Avram. There are more photos in it.
HTH
Radu




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cainele_franctiror
Posted: October 06, 2008 02:51 pm
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QUOTE (Radub @ October 06, 2008 02:48 pm)
Try to find the book "Avioane Reactive in Culorile Fortelor Aseriene ale Romaniei" by Valeriu Avram.

The author is colonel George Paul Sandachi
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bansaraba
Posted: October 06, 2008 03:47 pm
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Who said anything about a fight? We're trying to find the truth here, don't we? :) I'll see if that book is in the local library.

I'm more puzzled about this statement:

QUOTE
1913-1915 red-blue-yellow roundel (with YBR "flag" on the fin)


Did the Romanian Aviation had these marks on airplanes between 1913 and 1915, or was it the normal roundel and tricolor (RYB and BYR respectively)?
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Radub
Posted: October 06, 2008 03:51 pm
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QUOTE (cainele_franctiror @ October 06, 2008 02:51 pm)
QUOTE (Radub @ October 06, 2008 02:48 pm)
Try to find the book "Avioane Reactive in Culorile Fortelor Aseriene ale Romaniei" by Valeriu Avram.

The author is colonel George Paul Sandachi

The book by George Paul Sandachi is a different one and it deals with insignia only. It seems to be a thesis (lucrare de diploma) and to be honest, it is very basic.

Te book by Valeriu Avram was published in the mid-90s by Modelism and is hard to find.

Radu
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Ardee
Posted: October 06, 2008 07:07 pm
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Well, I guess this topic has some interest! Thanks Victor, I'll look forward to seeing what you might be able to get together. And thanks to all the others who have contributed - obviously, this a little more complex than first I thought. But I especially appreciate the clarification on the cross' name.
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