Me -109 questions, info needed

another view

MiG 29A



This post has been edited by mykyb on December 17, 2005 10:33 pm

The last one.

Hi Miki,

Congrats. Very nice collection.

And for your question about Bf-109G-2 "white seven" it's difficult to know exactly the colors (as Denes said) . But for sure it was not a winter camouflage.
Look at this old discussion.
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1313

But you can choose another cammo for romanian G-2's ( i will post soon other rom. G-2 color profiles)

From 53sq, it's more interesting to do "white 1" of Cpt Toma Lucian ( with victories bars on rudder).

As for Vinca plane (E-7) what are your doubts ?
http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=981&st=15

This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 18, 2005 05:34 am

Hello mykyb!
Indeed you have done a good job!
Perhaps you can tell me some weathering techniques? I am interested especially in marking the panel lines.
Thanx.
Andi

Hi Mykyb,
You basically asked two questions.

1. Did the Bf109s (or any other foreign-built aircraft) used by the ARR have stencils in Romanian?
I believe that the stencils remained in German. This is obvious in some photos, especially photos showing the warning plate on the engine undercowl of the G-types (...that the oil cooler is built-in and is hot...etc...)
The 109Es were overpainted and chances were that the stencils were overpainted as well.
The only stencils that may have been translated into Romanian, were those applied to the IAR-built 109s.
The jury is still out on this one. I personally like to translate those stencils purely for the fun of it. Then, even in 1/32 they are so small that unless one gets really close, it makes no difference. Honestly, I would not be too bothered about it.

2. What are the colours of "White 7"?
This is how I will paint my model (eventually) based on info provided in the book "Les Messerschmitt Bf109 roumains". I believe that the fuselage was painted with a wide mottle pattern of RLM74/75/76 and possibly some RLM02. This is a relatively dark camouflage. Uppersurfaces were painted in a splinter camouflage of RLM74/75 with soft edges. I believe that the base camouflage was very similar to that applied to "White 4" of the same unit (see page 54 of the book)
I believe that the lighter colour spots applied on top are white. Usually, such temporary white used for winter camouflage is meant to be removable with a cloth dipped in aviation fuel. After some use, such white camouflage washes away and becomes translucid which allows the paint underneath to show through. This gives such previously white paint the appearance of a light grey.
Why do I believe they were white? Look at the photo on page 37 of the above-mentioned book. One can clearly see that the field behind the right wing is covered in snow. Look at the photo on page 39: there is dirty snow on the runway and snow near the rudder of "White 7." Photo on page 40: there is snow on the field under the right wingtip.
With so much snow around, why not go for the idea of white camouflage spots? After all, there were other Romanian aircraft painted in a similar manner during winter (IAR38, Hs129)
Those white mottles create a stark contrast with the backgrund, which then appears to be a uniform dark colour. Look at the photo on page 40. The base 74/75/76 mottle can be seen around the Mickey Mouse emblem - then look at the white spots right behind it, The differnce is obvious.
Now, look again at the photo pf "White 4" on page 54: have alook at the right wingtip. Looks like white mottles.

HTH,
Radu

Based on the pair of photos I have, showing 'White 7' and 'White 3' (taxiing one after the other), the light coloured patches on the fuselage are not white. They appear be to some sort of light grey. In fact, it looks like there are two different shades of light grey splattered all over the fuselage.

The WHITE stencilling on the flaps of 'White 3' appears to be in Rumanian: "NU CALCA ACI".

As I said earlier, the colours of this series of Bf 109Gs of Esc. 53 vân. are uncertain. In order to avoid controversy, I would suggest you to select another 'Gustav' in Rumanian markings for your kit.

Gen. Dénes

Hi Radu,

Thanks for your answer.
It's seems logical what you've been saying about the camouflage and about white patches.I have the photos too and it seems to me your idea is correct.Even so,I'll drop this" Winter Gustav" paint job.I like it very much but for me there are too many unanswered question regarding this particular a/c and anyway I don't have the technology to print white for the 53 Sqd.Mickey Mouse emblem.I wish you good luck whit your project and I'm looking forward for your posts.
I don't criticizes your work,I just read a post where you sad you like the "clean" a/c, e.g. Hurricane which is by me the most beautiful Hurry I've ever seen but it's too clean for me.Bay the way,this Gustav used in Winter conditions on dirty and wet airfield can't be a clean one.I'm not saying to put dirt around the wheels I just want you to think like this.How your car will lucks like when you drive in a rainy day behind a truck?In Romania not UK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.Now check your car next day after the car is dry out.The same thing whit the a/c.The airflow behind the propeller will spray the hole body whit dirty water, etc.I don't think that in war condition they have time to clean out the a/c.I'm private pilot too and what I saw on the a/c flown by me that actually the dust combined whit oil licks( when you change the oil,not necessarily when the oil is liking from the tank or a broken oil lines,which for the front line a/c is not uncommon) and water from rain they will set between the panel lines,around the rivets and in many other places where the ground crew can't rich but it can be seen.So,don't be afraid to use washes.I believe I don't have to talk about the condition of the paint on a refurbished a/c wasn't repainted only where the German markings was.I know that the mechanics had "asa zisi bocanci cu cuie,bocanci cu talpa de piele prinse in cuie"I'm following your last build and rely like it I just have one thing you to change.The chain on the left side of the cockpit must bi repainted in black and drybrush whit gun metal,in this way they'll looks more a chain.

Hi Andi,
Thanks for the kind words.I'll respond to your request soon,I want to put some photos for e.g.It's easier to follow.

HTH,
Miki

This post has been edited by mykyb on December 18, 2005 10:37 pm

Miki,

Regarding the future project with romanian Bf-109 E Vinca because everybody did it, I suggest to model other nice rom. Emil, the one of Lt. Dicezare Ioan, Bf 109 E 3 " yellow 9 "Hai Fetito". The ex pilot it's still an active man and you can get an autograph from G-ral Dicezare.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1670



This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 19, 2005 03:26 am

Hi Radu,

I would not agree with you regarding winter cammo for more reasons.

1. The pictures are you described were made in early spring '44 on Otopeni airfield ( some snow but not on the runaway).
2. Most of the planes of 53sq ( included "white 7" and "white 3 ") are old planes left with the same cammo as in summer '43.
3. This planes were original painted with RLM grey colors and probably in '43 after revision in ASAM workshops ( or IAR Brasov) were oversprayed with green patches (more or less).
4. Romanian didn't use winter cammo on Bf 109 on estern front . If they don't used at Stalingrad on white snow airfield why should they used on concret runaway( grey color) airfield Otopeni ?

Dan.

53sq planes on Mizil airfield summer 43. No snow around but the light spot (grey color) were present on white seven. To me the dark color look green and not dark grey . Source Dan Melinte coll.

White seven on Mizil airfield

White seven prepare to land on Mizil airfield


This post has been edited by Cantacuzino on December 19, 2005 04:45 am

Honestly,
The camouflage of "White 7" has to be the most baffling issue I ever came across. I had a similar discussion before with another model builder and I hit the same immovable, rigid "brick wall" and lack of flexibility. I am not challenging anyone's authority on the subject, I am just trying to find some logical answers.

THE SPOTS:
I gave my arguments (logical, I hope) why I believe those spots were white:
- There is snow around the plane.
- White spots on a plane would help conceal it - not necessarily on the runway only but rather everywhere else such as on the taxyways, while partked, in the air etc.
- Other Romanian planes wore white spots for concealment purposes during winter (IAR38, HS129)
Why is it so hard to accept that they MAY be white?
The argument that "no other 109s were painted in winter camouflage before or after" does not really make much sense. There are so many "exceptions from the rule" when it comes to Romanian aircraft that it is obvious that THERE IS NO RULE. Also, if no other 109s were painted in that fashion, whether the spots were white, grey, rozbombon, vantturbat, etc., is that not an exception in itself? So, if we are already faced with an exception, why exclude the possibility that they MAY have been white? Why, so much rigidity?
As I explained before, temporary white camouflage washes away, it allows the colour underneath to show, so it often appears to be grey. There are plenty of similar examples of German or Russian planes wearing winter camouflage: they seldom wear a pristine "housemaid's pride" white - it is more like a dirty grey. However, this "resulting light colour" is not uniform (as you have already spotted Denes) - it changes according to the base colour that the white was applied to and also it differs according to the amount of wear.

If the purpose of those spots is NOT concealment, then I have a few questions:
1. Why use grey spots on top of the existing camouflage on a plane?
2. If not concealment, what was their purpose?
3. What colour were those light colour spots? Grey? Green? Earth? White?


The photos in Otopeni and the photos in Mizil may have been taken only three months apart. Is it possible that the Otopeni photos were taken in the snow in February and the Mizil photos were taken in May? That would explain the presence of white mottles during summer. Please note that in these photos, "White 4" appears to wear the same light colour spots. In the photo of the crashed "white 4", the light colour spots are gone (except for the wingtip). Is it poossible that the light colour mottles were removed at some stage after these Mizil photos were taken?



THE BASE CAMOUFLAGE:
Yes, there may be an overspray of green. However, there are some mottles visible, especially around the Mickey Mouse emblem and on the fuselage under the canopy. These mottles are of a different colour from the earlier discussed light colour spots. I still believe that the base camouflage was similar to that of "White 4" mentioned before. That is undeniably a dark camouflage. White spots on top of it would create a stark contrast that would force the background to appear dark. One must also remember that RLM74 is actually a dark green more than a dark grey.


So, Denes and Cantacuzino, this is why I respectfully disagree.

Radu