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> Romanian & Hungarian war-crimes
Republican Guard
Posted: September 07, 2003 12:23 am
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Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei? :?

What about war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars?
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Florin
Posted: October 10, 2003 02:38 pm
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Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei?  :?  
.....................................


You'll find some interesting things about that in "Teroarea Fascisto-Horthista in Nord Estul Transilvaniei". In English:"The Fascist-Horthyst Terror in North-Eastern Transylvania."

The book has a lot of valuable, precise and documented information, not only about Moisei. I hope you are able to read in Romanian language. Maybe the book was published also in English, but don't take it for granted.

I wouldn't be surprised when a Hungarian would consider that book dirty Communist propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised to read any other labeling about the book. I have to say that is one of the few historical books targeting the 40's in Romania, published during the Communism, and not praising the merits of the Romanian Communist Party. Simply because the topic was not related to the Romanian Communist Party.

Now, about the Romanian crimes against the Hungarians. There is a saying:
"Any legend has a seed of truth."
I am optimistic that the Hungarian historians published a book about these crimes. If so, soon you may be get a clue from other members.
Regards,
Florin
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Dénes
Posted: October 10, 2003 04:22 pm
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QUOTE
Does anybody here know anything about the massacre at Moisei?  :?  
What about war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars?


Both topics have already been discussed, in general, on this forum. Check out: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/viewtopic.php?t=122

The book mentioned by Florin (one can already have an idea about the approach the book takes on this issue just by the peculiar title) is practically useless from historical point of view, as it combines facts with fiction (I've actually read the main parts of the book). Moreover, since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.

As for "war-crimes committed by Romanians against Magyars", as written in the aforementioned thread, you can check out the following book, available on-line in PDF format, published after the fall of Communism by the official Organization of Hungarians from Rumania (DAHR, RMDSZ, UDMR): http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/feher/feher.pdf
The book includes documents, gives extensive sources and contains a large bibliography.

As for the crime at Moisei, here is what I found on a German site (not Rumanian and not Hungarian), http://www.karpatenwilli.com/komi7813.htm:
QUOTE
\"Am Ausgang von Moisei steht rechts vom Weg das Mahnmal für die 29 Bauern, die 1944 von den Faschisten hingerichtet wurden, weil sie die im Raum operierenden Partisanen unterstützt hatten.\"

Translated roughly as:
QUOTE
\"At the exit of Moisei right the memorial stands for the 29 farmers from the way, who were executed 1944 by the fascists, because they had supported in the area operating partisans.\"


You can check out the monument (made by a Hungarian sculptor), at the following site:
http://www.johnrausch.com/Maramures/moise01.htm

Dénes
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Florin
Posted: October 10, 2003 05:54 pm
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.............................
The book mentioned by Florin (one can already have an idea about the approach the book takes on this issue just by the peculiar title) is practically useless from historical point of view, as it combines facts with fiction (I've actually read the main parts of the book). Moreover, since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.................................


Hi,

So Denes read the main parts of the book, enough to realize that "it combines facts with fiction".
Can he give examples of "fiction"?

I hated Communism a lot, as child, teenager and young man.
However, I do not agree with: "...since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one."
The Romanian Communist Party line, in between 1950-1980 was simply to forget everything regarding Hungarian crimes, and to show everything as a sweet love in between nations. Then, after 1980, under the strong Magyar offensive on all media and political fronts (from books as "History of Transylvania", to the pro-Hungarian lobby in the US Congress), the Romanian Communist Party decided it is time to don't hide the past any more.
Well, that's it for now.
Florin
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Dénes
Posted: October 10, 2003 06:58 pm
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QUOTE
So Denes read the main parts of the book, enough to realize that \"it combines facts with fiction\".
Can he give examples of \"fiction\"?

Because I don't have the book with me, I cannot give concrete examples at this time. Sorry.

QUOTE
I do not agree with: \"...since it was published under Communism, the topic must have met the party lines, which was a rather nationalist one.\"
The Romanian Communist Party line, in between 1950-1980 was simply to forget everything regarding Hungarian crimes, and to show everything as a sweet love in between nations.

Until the early 1970s, Moscow's influence over the Rumanian Communist Party was strong; therefore, there was no room left for nationalistic tendencies. Every stingy issue that could overcloud the relation between "the two neighbouring and friendly Communist nations" was indeed kept under the lid - on both sides.
However, as soon as Moscow's influence weakened, the nationalistic line came to light. IIRC, the first major Rumanian nationalist book was "A word about Transylvania" by a certain Ion Lancranjan. That prompted a reply from Budapest, in form of a long article, titled: "About a strange book", a novelty in Hungary, as until then the whole topic of Transylvania was practically a tabu.
Needless to say, everything that was actually published was sanctioned by the Communist Party. The nationalist line intensified in the '80s, including the book mentioned by you, as well as other pseudo-historical books, often signed by Dr. Ilie Ceausescu (does the name ring a bell?).

Dénes

P.S. Ironically, some of the books of Dr. Ceausescu (as well as of his most famous brother, Nicolae) can still be found on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...4958109-2024910
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Florin
Posted: October 10, 2003 08:21 pm
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.......Ironically, some of the books of Dr. Ceausescu (as well as of his most famous brother, Nicolae) can still be found on Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4958109-2024910


Denes,

Unfortunately for Romania, people as Nicolae Ceausescu and Ilie Ceausescu are by far more famous than Nicolae Paulescu (inventor of insuline), Petrache Poenaru (inventor of the pen with ink tank, used by everybody before the invention of the ball-point pen), Henri Coanda, Traian Vuia, George Constantinescu (the inventor of the hydraulic/sonic synchroniser between helix and machine gun for the British in WWI) and so on. You know very well that I can fill one page if I am continuing this list.

The fact that books written by Nicolae Ceausescu and Ilie Ceausescu are available on Amazon.com could make happy only the enemies of Romania. Well, I know you are not one of them, and I understand your annoyance.

Florin
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inahurry
Posted: October 10, 2003 11:25 pm
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The nationalist line was always present and in fact is responsible for winning back the country for Romanians. 1958, 1964-freeing the last political prisoners, the election of Ceausescu against clearly pro-Russian alternatives, 1968-Warsaw Pact (except Romania) invasion of Cz.echoslovakia moment prove it. Or the detemined rejection of the "Valev plan" (1964 ), rejection approveded by Dej ( briefly, a Russian economist project to integrate economic regions in such a way that would have made Romania lose any control over its economic development). The 60ies are also associated with opening toward strong economic relations with the western countries.

It wasn't possible to express certain opinions on historical relations between, not only Romania and Hungary but also Romania and Russia (or USSR) or even on many of Romania's historical personalities until all the stalinists have been remved from important positions. The "breaking of the ice" began though with literature, also in the 60ies. Ion Lancranjan was a well known writer, not historian. Even in the deep stalinist era - the 1956 in Budapest episode, for instance - the Russians were quite aware of the rivalry between Romania and Hungary and rejected the Romanian offer to participate against the revoltees.

to Florin: All the names of great Romanians you mentioned are well known in Romania and to my knowledge were well known years ago. Of course, Ceausescu is known too, unavoidable, I wouldn't bet about Ilie Ceausescu, especially with the younger generation. Coanda, for instance was welcomed back with great honors toward the end of his life. Surely, Coanda, Vuia who were taught about from the early years in school are more famous than Gogu Constantinescu who was mentioned more at college levels. I just recalled now about the emphasis that was made at some point about Odobleja - clearly with a harder to understand work - and yet greatly popularized. And so on. It was a cultural "reconquista", in the history's field too, though it had its limitations.
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Florin
Posted: October 11, 2003 08:36 am
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QUOTE
.....................................
the Russians were quite aware of the rivalry between Romania and Hungary and rejected the Romanian offer to participate against the revoltees...


There were some actions of sympaty with the anti-Communist Hungarian movement at the university centers in Transylvania. Hungarian and Romanian students took part altogether in these protest / solidarity actions. Most of them were arrested in the aftermath.

My mother told me how the Communists shown in theaters a propaganda movie showing how in Hungary the Communists were hung in hooks for pigs, or how they were burnt alive. The scope was to show the cruelty and savagery of the anti-Communists.
The propaganda movie was withdrawn after 2 or 3 days, because the informers reported how the common Romanian watching was very happy with what happened with the Communists, and very disgusted about the Russian intervention with tanks and infantry.
On my behalf, I saw a documentary made by the Hungarians after 1990. It seems those people burned alive were members of the Hungarian Communist Security Service, who fired against people from their headquarter, for several hours, before surrender.

QUOTE
to Florin:  All the names of great Romanians you mentioned are well known in Romania and to my knowledge were well known years ago.


I know they are known in Romania. However, the Romanian nation has less than 1% of the planet population.
The only Romanian priority still to be found in the foreign technical books is "the Coanda efect".

Internationally, the 2 Canadians who made their claim about insuline 2 years after Nicolae Paulescu published his work in French language got the Nobel prize and are considered the first.
The laminar cross-section of an airplane wing, still accepted in the 50's, in Europe, as "profile NACA / Carofoli" it is known now just as "profile NACA".
Everybody in America is proud about the first flight of the Wright brothers, in 1903, but nobody mentions that their airplane needed an exterior mechanical help to take off. Next time when you'll have the chance to see how they took off, in a documetary, you'll see a big weight falling from a tower-like structure, close and in the rear of the airplane. Also you can see a rail ahead of the airplane. The immage is not crystal clear, because the film is from 1903. I guess the falling weight pulled a rope, which in turn pulled the airplane.
Traian Vuia, who was the first to take off in his airplane using only the motor of his airplane, is simply forgotten. Few French newspapers published the performance, but nobody from the French Academy of Science bothered to witness, because their official line was that no aircraft heavier than air can fly. But after Vuia made the proof, on 18 March 1906, they crowded to witness the flight of Santos Dumont made in Autumn of 1906, a accepted it as the first one. It is interesteing to note that Santos Dumont built in the beginning a completely different shape of plane, but that used in Autumn 1906 resemble very close with the one tested by Vuia in March 1906.

In the 20's, the British published a list of 20 greatest scientists, from their point of view. George Constantinescu was there. Who remembers about him today?

There are some good news, however. I saw on the American sites, including NASA, the mention that Coanda-1910, the turbojet airplane, was with 30 years before Heinkel (Germany) or Whittle (Great Britain). I think they saw how proud are the Germans of their Me-262, Me-163 and He-162, and decided to do something about it.

So, to end, as long somebody is not accepted abroad as the first, it is of littlle use that we know him. And the contemporary Romanian postal stamps would better show these technical pioneers, and not some exotic sports never played in Romania before or whatever personalities from far away, who may didn't know that Romania exist on the map.

Florin
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johnny_bi
Posted: October 11, 2003 11:18 am
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Denes,

there are many true facts written under the Communist regim... I could give you a personal example... My grand - grand - mother was cut to pieces with the bayonnets by 2 Hungarian soldiers ( I suspect they were gendarms) while retreating from Transylvania. The soldiers thought that no one could see them (the people evacuated the village) but the whole family was hidden in the house and watched. This happened in a village around Mures... The fact is written in the book "Epopeea de pe Mures" that talks about many "small crimes" like this that REALLY happened and that were true... And writing about those crimes had no importance for the historical point of view. The best way to check the stories is to go there and to ask... taking in consideration that you are from the region :D. It is impossible to check "documents" about those crimes. But its remained in the memory of the peasants... The fact of being writen under communist regim is not a motive to discualifiy an entire book.
My grand-parents had no bad feeling about the Hungarians... they speak Hungarian and they have no problem to speak Hungarian when their neighbours express themself difficult in Romanian. And I think that this kind of attitude solved the problem by itself...
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Bernard Miclescu
Posted: November 30, 2003 06:00 pm
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Traian Vuia, who was the first to take off in his airplane using only the motor of his airplane, is simply forgotten. Few French newspapers published the performance, but nobody from the French Academy of Science bothered to witness, because their official line was that no aircraft heavier than air can fly. But after Vuia made the proof, on 18 March 1906, they crowded to witness the flight of Santos Dumont made in Autumn of 1906, a accepted it as the first one. It is interesteing to note that Santos Dumont built in the beginning a completely different shape of plane, but that used in Autumn 1906 resemble very close with the one tested by Vuia in March 1906.


I have some Aviation books in French and ALL of them (even in the dictionaries Hachette and Le Petit Robert) Vuia is considered the first pilot that flew an airplane havier than the air in march 1906. All the books are from late 90 or the beggining of this millénaire. Maybe they changed their mind about Vuia and Santos Dumont....

Yours,
BM
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Dan Po
Posted: February 26, 2004 12:16 am
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Im very sorry if i cannot give you here the exact informations but i read in a newspaper, years ago about a ww2 romanian veteran who was juddged about war crimes who was comited by the romanian troops in a village from bihor county (NW of Romania).
In that village (i forgot the name but was/is with hungarian majority, near to Salonta) the hungarian villagers attacket the romanian troops and a few romanian soldiers was killed. So ... was a few executions with a ZB light machinegun ...

In my oppinion was some war crimes commited by romanian troops ... as a revenge - they wasn t angels when their relatives was "worked" by hungarian after 1940 - and not only as a revenge ... sometimess. :| We have to take care when we talk about this subject, every part have his true. But i think that is very important to know all the facts.
Maybe a book, writen by romanians and hungarians about those hard times will be a good example for us .... we like or not we are toghether from 1000 years .. and we have to find a way to live in peace.

This post has been edited by Dan Po on October 31, 2004 05:45 pm
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Takács Péter
Posted: October 07, 2004 01:39 pm
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Florin!

I repeat Dénes:Visit this site:
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/feher/feher.pdf
You can read the truth from many survivors!

***edited by admin***

Anyway i am sure that the Hungarian soldeirs wereN1t always gentlemans with rumanian citizens but the most war crimes made the "yours".Anyway why made the red army russian lathe in Erdély?

Some example about your regular armys crimes:
1919.April 19.:Kőröstárkány,93 dead innocent Hungarians.(woman,childern,old man)
1944.September 24.:Gyanta,48 dead innocent Hungarians

They killing made the regular(!) army members.If you need then i search more and more events!

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aerialls
Posted: October 07, 2004 04:32 pm
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1941 :

919 romanian civilians in only one county
28 churches demolished
total number of victims: aprox: 18000

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This post has been edited by Victor on October 07, 2004 07:05 pm
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Victor
Posted: October 07, 2004 07:12 pm
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aerialls you are this close from being banned! Stop insulting other members and behave.

Takacs Peter, the forum's language is English. Please limit your posts to that language.
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dragos
Posted: October 07, 2004 07:21 pm
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QUOTE (Takács Péter)
Anyway i am sure that the Hungarian soldeirs wereN1t always gentlemans with rumanian citizens but the most war crimes made the "yours".


Do you have any statistics at hand to back up your claims?
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