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> 23 August 1944, 61 years ago...
Dénes
Posted: August 24, 2005 03:06 am
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The 61st anniversary of the royal coup d'état, when Rumania defected from the Axis camp and joined the Allies, was celebrated today in Bucharest by veterans and relatives.

(IMG:http://www.adevarulonline.ro/img/photoarchive/monument-eroi-academia-mili.jpg)
[Source: Adevarul]

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Victor
Posted: August 24, 2005 06:33 am
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I passed yesterday by the Military Academy plateau where the ceremony was held. I saw 4 Mihai Viteazul Order cloaks, including Dicezare. There were around 50-60 veterans and probably a platoon of the 30th Guard Regiment. Couldn't stay though.
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Zayets
Posted: August 24, 2005 07:02 am
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QUOTE (Dénes @ Aug 24 2005, 03:06 AM)
The 61st anniversary of the royal coup d'état, when Rumania defected from the Axis camp and joined the Allies, was celebrated today in Bucharest by veterans and relatives.

(IMG:http://www.adevarulonline.ro/img/photoarchive/monument-eroi-academia-mili.jpg)
[Source: Adevarul]

Gen. Dénes

Where's the article?
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Dénes
Posted: August 24, 2005 11:48 am
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QUOTE (Zayets @ Aug 24 2005, 01:02 PM)
Where's the article?
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 25, 2005 08:53 pm
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How many veteran pilots besides Dicezare were there ? (I have a feeling Dan Stoian was not onoe of them :D )

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on August 25, 2005 08:54 pm
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 05:31 am
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Wel,there's no article there anymore.Anyway,that's just details.
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Dénes
Posted: August 26, 2005 11:25 am
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Try to search the archives.

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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 11:33 am
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Actul de la 23 August 1944, cand Romania a intors armele si s-a alaturat Natiunilor Unite in lupta impotriva Axei, a fost marcat, ieri, de catre veteranii de razboi bucuresteni printr-o serie de ceremonii militare si religioase. Astfel, au fost depuse coroane si jerbe la Mormantul Eroului Necunoscut, Monumentul Eroilor Patriei din fata Universitatii Nationale de Aparare si la Cimitirul Eroilor Militari Ghencea. Veteranii de razboi considera ca actul de la 23 August 1944 a onorat natiunea romana si a presupus un mare curaj, dar, in prezent, aceasta zi nu mai este sarbatorita asa cum se cuvine. De altfel, la manifestarile de ieri nu a participat nici un reprezentant al Prefecturii sau Primariei Capitalei. "Suntem mahniti ca nu a venit nimeni din partea Prefecturii sau a Primariei. Nici macar primarul sectorului 5 nu a venit, desi acest monument se afla in sectorul sau. Noi I-am invitat, deci stiau de eveniment. Nu voiam sa depuna coroane, voiam doar sa vina aici. Acum 61 de ani, noi am fost cei care ne-am dat sangele pentru tara, si nu ni se pare corect ceea ce se intampla acum. Ne-am intors doar 800.000 din cei aproape 3 milioane care am plecat la razboi", a declarat Teodor Halic, prim-vicepresedintele Asociatiei Nationale a Veteranilor de Razboi. La depunerile de coroane, in afara veteranilor si a vaduvelor de razboi, au participat doar reprezentanti ai Primariei Sectorului 2 si ai Academiei Militare.


This post has been edited by Zayets on August 26, 2005 11:33 am
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sid guttridge
Posted: August 26, 2005 11:56 am
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Hi Denes,

I would suggest that Romania did not defect directly from the Axis camp to the Allied camp.

The "royal coup d'etat" resulted in Romania withdrawing from the Axis and the Germans being ordered out of Romania, not in a declaration of war.

The declaration of war followed the German refusal to evacuate the country and their attack by land and air on Bucharest the following day.

I would suggest that, although the "royal coup d'etat" and Romania's declaration of war on the Axis followed very closely upon one another, they were not one event.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 12:05 pm
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Well,apparently this is not such a big date of interest anymore for the masses.Even for the political class. At least the article suggested that way.

Denes,when Germans had big success in the Soviet Union they took hundreds of thousand of prisoners.They move many of them to the West,in factories,working for the German war machine. In 1945 when Russians entered Germany they met those poor guys,exhausted,yet alive and ahppy that finally Mother Russia won the war and now they are free. Mother Russia,or better put,Stalin throw them in gulag because they were considered defectors even if they fought Germany until they became POWs.Some of them were executed on the spot,yup, they defected according with Stalins idea.

Would you tell that to Di Cesare, Stoian, or whoever that they defected Axis in August 23rd? I wonder what they say.Especially given the fact that August 23rd is still a foggy period in Romanian's history.

I hope you will not take any offence by this.Is just a remark.

This post has been edited by Zayets on August 26, 2005 12:06 pm
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 12:36 pm
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QUOTE
Veteranii de razboi considera ca actul de la 23 August 1944 a onorat natiunea romana si a presupus un mare curaj, dar, in prezent, aceasta zi nu mai este sarbatorita asa cum se cuvine.


I heard some ww2 veterans saying something totally different to this, the act of 23rd August did not honor Romania by any means, we just did what we needed to do and that is all to it, I don't understand how someone can say it honored us (I am no nazi nor am I for germany winning the war - god forbid, but saying 23rd august honored us is wrong).

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on August 26, 2005 12:36 pm
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 12:37 pm
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Not our finest hour probably.But even if it was not honored us , definitely saved us.
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D13-th_Mytzu
Posted: August 26, 2005 12:42 pm
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QUOTE
Not our finest hour probably.But even if it was not honored us , definitely saved us.


Yes I totaly agree, as I said in my previos post: "we just did what we needed to do" , it was in our interest to do it but not an honorable thing. Besides, it did not save us that much - probably the best thing that happend was that USSR gave back Transilvania to us thus punishing Hungary who continued to fight against them (remember what russian soldiers did to romanian civilian population after 23rd august 1944, how they acted like savage barbarians) but it is not sure we wouldn't have got it back anyway. But after the war ended we were treated just like Hungary or other eastern european countries, so what did it save exactly ?

This post has been edited by D13-th_Mytzu on August 26, 2005 12:44 pm
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Zayets
Posted: August 26, 2005 12:54 pm
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QUOTE (D13-th_Mytzu @ Aug 26 2005, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE
Not our finest hour probably.But even if it was not honored us , definitely saved us.


Yes I totaly agree, as I said in my previos post: "we just did what we needed to do" , it was in our interest to do it but not an honorable thing. Besides, it did not save us that much - probably the best thing that happend was that USSR gave back Transilvania to us thus punishing Hungary who continued to fight against them (remember what russian soldiers did to romanian civilian population after 23rd august 1944, how they acted like savage barbarians) but it is not sure we wouldn't have got it back anyway. But after the war ended we were treated just like Hungary or other eastern european countries, so what did it save exactly ?

Not quite exactly.Hungary was invaded immediately after Hitler found out that Horthy prepares to turn weapons against him. The same thing supposed to happen in Romania but Antonescu managed to convince Hitler that the situation was under control. Saying that Hungary continued to fight against USSR is like saying Austria and Czechoslovakia continued to fight against USSR.
What did it saved? Both parts. Romania would probably be reduced at what is today the regat and a small part of Dobrogea.Of course,this is pure speculation,but a very probable course of actions.
Of course the Russian soldiers behaved like savages.What would you expect? 12 milions deaths in your country , there's no more room for chivalry and fancy talks. I am not looking for any excuse ,especially for the Russian ones,but that what it was.My grandfather lived under the Germans and Russians alike and there's no doubt that he didn't felt comfortable under any of them.Or at last that was what he told me.Other grandfather was captured at Stalingrad.Came home early,1948 if I am not mistaken.Same for grandfather of my wife but he came in 50s I think.The other one died engaging the russians in Crimeea.The things are gone,live the day of today and remember the heroes.That was our cross to carry and we carried it proudly.
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Dénes
Posted: August 26, 2005 01:24 pm
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QUOTE (sid guttridge @ Aug 26 2005, 05:56 PM)
I would suggest that Romania did not defect directly from the Axis camp to the Allied camp.

The "royal coup d'etat" resulted in Romania withdrawing from the Axis and the Germans being ordered out of Romania, not in a declaration of war.

Defection doesn't necessarily imply declaration of war.

The act of defection from the Axis was contained in the royal proclamation, aired in the evening of August 23, 1944.

Gen. Dénes
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