Romanian Military History Forum - Part of Romanian Army in the Second World War Website



Pages: (6) [1] 2 3 ... Last »  ( Go to first unread post ) Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> The Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, 60 Years Ago...
Dénes
Posted: September 20, 2004 03:35 am
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4265
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



60 years ago was the battle of of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, where the largest combat in Transylvania took place. Overall, the battle lasted from September 5 to October 8, in three phases, between the German 8th and Hungarian 2nd Armies, against the Soviet 27th and Rumanian 4th Armies.

60 years ago today, on the 19th, was one of the fiercest combats between German-Hungarian and Soviet-Rumanian troops.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on September 20, 2004 07:38 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Lysimachus
Posted: September 27, 2004 12:35 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Member No.: 333
Joined: August 31, 2004



Is there any order of battle, any book that would help me simulate this battle for a wargame?
Thank you :)
PMUsers Website
Top
aerialls
Posted: October 01, 2004 04:49 am
Quote Post


Fruntas
*

Group: Members
Posts: 75
Member No.: 157
Joined: December 04, 2003



yep... my granny knows. :huh: figthing took place over 2 weeks in trenches in Indol village.. hungarian trenches were located there. she was 16 at that time... <_<

her brother 15, ... used to guide russian tanks troughout the countryside ... she say. Russian artilery blasted the trenches from near turda gate. Russian t34 were easily destroyed by flamethowers. A romanian plane was downed and the villagers were called upon to see the fact... She has many storyes upon those events... Don't know how reliable they are <_< ;) Grenades and projectiles left in the arrable land made victims until the 60's.

This post has been edited by aerialls on October 01, 2004 02:06 pm
PM
Top
BobM
Posted: October 10, 2004 06:29 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 23
Member No.: 148
Joined: November 25, 2003



I'd love to find a good (online) topographical map of the area, even better a scan from a book dealing with the battle. Ive wanted to put a wargames scenario together of this battle for a while but I'm lacking a decent map and a detailed OB

Cheers

Bob
PMUsers Website
Top
aerialls
Posted: October 10, 2004 07:09 pm
Quote Post


Fruntas
*

Group: Members
Posts: 75
Member No.: 157
Joined: December 04, 2003



hi there...
check this:

http://www.hartionline.ro/ro/harta/e4.html
http://www.multimap.com/wi/browse.cgi?clie...out.x=9&out.y=9

you should improvise or imagine the battle: russian - romanian forces towards
S-E S S-V, hungarian and german forces in the north and middle i guess...

maybe Denes will help you with the oob if he can.

the first map is descentred... the large areea in the S-V is mountaneous.

This post has been edited by aerialls on October 10, 2004 07:39 pm
PM
Top
Dani
Posted: October 12, 2004 07:20 am
Quote Post


Sergent
*

Group: Members
Posts: 198
Member No.: 323
Joined: August 13, 2004



QUOTE (Lysimachus @ Sep 27 2004, 12:35 PM)
Is there any order of battle...

I found something in some books from 1960 to 1980 but I have to compile and put together those informations. Maybe in few days I'll be able to post a close view to oob.
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
mabadesc
Posted: October 14, 2004 01:54 am
Quote Post


Locotenent colonel
*

Group: Members
Posts: 802
Member No.: 40
Joined: July 11, 2003



I would be very interested in reading your findings on this battle, Dani. If you have the time, please do post some info., and please don't forget to include unit commanders if you have the names...

Thanks.
PM
Top
BobM
Posted: October 16, 2004 06:05 pm
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 23
Member No.: 148
Joined: November 25, 2003



QUOTE (aerialls @ Oct 10 2004, 07:09 PM)
hi there...
check this:

http://www.hartionline.ro/ro/harta/e4.html
http://www.multimap.com/wi/browse.cgi?clie...out.x=9&out.y=9


Thanks but I'm looking for something much more detailed. Topographical map at 1:100000 or 1:200000 would be excellent

Cheers

Bob
PMUsers Website
Top
dragos
Posted: October 16, 2004 07:33 pm
Quote Post


Admin
Group Icon

Group: Admin
Posts: 2378
Member No.: 2
Joined: February 11, 2003



PMUsers WebsiteYahoo
Top
Lysimachus
Posted: October 18, 2004 10:43 am
Quote Post


Soldat
*

Group: Members
Posts: 16
Member No.: 333
Joined: August 31, 2004



QUOTE (dragos @ Oct 16 2004, 07:33 PM)
http://mapmachine.nationalgeographic.com/m...27333,46.660433


Great satellite view!!
Thank you for these links. Any ideas for the oob?

This post has been edited by Lysimachus on October 18, 2004 10:43 am
PMUsers Website
Top
Dani
Posted: October 18, 2004 01:36 pm
Quote Post


Sergent
*

Group: Members
Posts: 198
Member No.: 323
Joined: August 13, 2004



For OOB please allow me 1-2 days more. I haven't time enough last week.
Thanks!
PMEmail PosterYahoo
Top
Dénes
Posted: October 18, 2004 02:22 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4265
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



Yesterday there was an official commemoration of the battle of Turda, held by Hungarian and Rumanian officials.
According to the Duna TV report (http://www.dunatv.hu/hirado/?200410170016) the Hungarian and German troops held the front around Turda against the tenfold numerical superiority of Soviet and Rumanian forces for 4 weeks. Reportedly, the Battle of Turda was one of the best defensive operations of the Royal Hungarian Honvédség. The Honvéd forces suffered 2500 KIAs and 7500 MIAs and POWs.
A monument was erected in the memory of the fallen Hungarian soldiers.

Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Dénes
Posted: October 18, 2004 06:33 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4265
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



An interesting and colourful appearance at the ceremonies held at Turda on the week-end was János Fenyvesi, a US Vietnam war veteran of Hungarian origin, who lost his father around Turda, in the Fall of 1944. In his speech, he noted: "in the jungles of Vietnam, eye-to-eye with Death, I realized that I must find out where my father rests on the battlefield. It was only much later, when I've heard of József Pataky, head of the local soldiers' grave maintenance committee, who informed me about the whereabouts of my father's final resting place."

Béla Markó, leader of the ****, noted the following: "Since [the Peace Treaty of] Trianon [of 1921], they continuously try to hammer into us that hero could be only someone who eventually won, who ended the war on the victor's side. Today, however, we could achieve progress, thus they now can accept and acknowledge: heroes were among the losers, too.
Today we realise, not solely one side can hold the ultimate truth, it can be shared by both sides, Hungarians and Rumanians of Transylvania alike.
Today we either jointly hold the truth, or jointly fail."

[Source: http://kronika.dntcj.ro]

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 19, 2004 03:41 am
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Dénes
Posted: October 19, 2004 03:00 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4265
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



Here are a few historical details related to the beginning of the Battle of Turda/Torda/Thorenburg, as given by a detailed Hungarian newspaper article:
Magyar Nemzet Online
Soviet mechanized units anticipated to occupy Turda (Torda) and Cluj (Kolozsvár) without any trouble. However, the advancing Red Army armoured units were stopped by the IIIrd Battalion of the Hungarian 25th Infantry Division (headquartered at Nagyvárad, in Rumanian Oradea, in German Grosswardein), at the road intersection at Vintul de Sus (in Hungarian Felvinc, in German Oberwintz) on Sept. 13.
The first three Soviet tanks were knocked out by Hungarian AT cannon section of the III./25 ID. The rest of the armoured column then spread out and attacked the defenders. With the help of a German AT unit, the Hungarians knocked out [an estimated] further 17 tanks. The attack was thus stopped, the Soviets regrouped and retreated to defensive positions. The attack was relaunched in the next days, but could not penetrate the defenders' lines.
Subsequently, the city of Turda changed hands several times, sometimes in bloody hand-to-hand combat and was finally taken by Soviet-Rumanian units only in early October 1944.

It's noteworthy that the entire enlisted personnel of the III./25 ID and another company was promoted one rank up for bravery on the battlefield - an unprecedented move in the history of the Honvédség.

Gen. Dénes

This post has been edited by Dénes on October 19, 2004 06:52 pm
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Dénes
Posted: October 25, 2004 08:40 pm
Quote Post


Host
Group Icon

Group: Hosts
Posts: 4265
Member No.: 4
Joined: June 17, 2003



Here is a more detailed description of the Battle of Turda/Torda of September/October 1944 (excerpt from a book manuscript):

QUOTE
Meantime in the south, the Soviet units of the 2nd Ukrainian Front occupied the Vulcan pass, captured Brasov and Sibiu (Nagyszeben, Hermannstadt). The Red Army intended to capture Cluj (Kolozsvár, Klausenburg), historical capital of Transylvania, without much effort. While continuing to advance towards the Mures (Maros) River, which the 2nd Armored Division recently was able to cross, they collided with and stopped the Hungarian units; the 2nd Hungarian Army was forced to take defensive stance on September 10, 1944.

The Soviet Stavka was a little surprised by the unexpected Hungarian offensive, and decided to strengthen its forces in the area to prevent another one. It also launched an attack of their own on Turda (Torda), in concert with the Rumanian 4th Army.
The town was originally defended by the weakened 25th Infantry Division, which had only about three battalions immediately available. The other three were delayed by various rear guard actions, and were not expected before September 13.
The advancing Red Army armoured units were stopped by the IIIrd Battalion of the Hungarian 25th Infantry Division (headquartered at Nagyvárad, in Rumanian Oradea, in German Grosswardein), at the road intersection at Felvinc (in Rumanian Vintul de Sus, in German Oberwintz) on September 13. The first three Soviet tanks were knocked out by Hungarian AT cannon section of the III./25 ID. The rest of the armoured column then spread out and attacked the defenders. With the help of a German AT unit, the Hungarians knocked out a  further 17 tanks. The attack was thus stopped, the Soviets regrouped and retreated to defensive positions.
The Soviets and their Rumanian ally attacked again on September 14 west of Turda. Luckily for the Hungarians, the 2nd Mountain Replacement Brigade just arrived in this area, and was able to stem the onslaught. The Soviets switched their efforts to the east sector in the afternoon, and there they were able to break through and reach the outskirts of Turda. The town was saved for the Axis by a timely counterattack of the 25th Infantry Division.

On September 15, the Soviets and Rumanians launched a major attack south of Turda, preceded by heavy artillery bombardment. They broke again in the eastern sector all the way to the outskirts, this time being stopped by the counter-attack of the 2nd Armored Division.
The Hungarians used the lull in the Soviet attacks and prepared one of their own. On September 19, the 25th Infantry Division, supported by the 10th Assault Gun Battalion with Zrínyi IIs, attacked after a short artillery barrage the Soviet 4th Guards Rifle Division. They gained some ground, but the Soviets fought tenaciously and refused to give up more ground, despite their heavy losses. The Soviets counterattacked with three Soviet and one Rumanian divisions, supported by a tank brigade and a weak Rumanian armored detachment, on September 22. The counterattack by the 2nd Armored Division with 57 tanks could not stop them, and only the maximum efforts of the two Hungarian divisions saved the day. The Hungarians lost over 1,000 men on this day alone.

On September 23, the 23. Panzer-Division arrived to relieve the worn and weary 2nd Armored Division, but was not able to restore the situation, while loosing over 30% of its infantry. Luckily for them, the Soviets and Rumanians at this point had also enough, suffering heavy losses, and concentrated their attacks on another sector.
The 25th Infantry Division remained in Turda until October 8, when the overall situation dictated the shortening of the front, thus the retreat of the defenders.


Gen. Dénes
PMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

Topic Options Pages: (6) [1] 2 3 ... Last » Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 






[ Script Execution time: 0.0515 ]   [ 14 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]