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| Romania had unfortunately not 50 millions inhabitants |
Bah, I was only 30 millions away
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > The post-WW2 and recent military > Romanian Army During the Cold War |
| Posted by: BobM November 25, 2003 10:55 pm |
| Gents
I am interested in the Romanian Army during the cold war years, from the 50's to the 90's. In the west there is a tendancy to see it as a poor mans Soviet army, same organisation but worse weapons Would anyone care to comment how the TO&E of the Romanain Army differed from that of the Russians? Cheers Bob Mackenzie |
| Posted by: mabadesc November 27, 2003 02:46 am |
| Hmm...good question. Frankly, I'd like to learn more about it too. As a kid, I was under the impression that the communist Romanian Army was fairly strong in comparison with other Eastern bloc countries (such as Bulgaria, Hungary, etc...). However, I don't know if that was just propaganda being fed to me or whether it was real.
Given that Ceausescu was quite paranoid and nationalist, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Romania was pretty strong for a communist country of its size. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 27, 2003 03:27 pm |
| Yes, the Romanian Army was a strong one in the 60s and 70s, and even during the 80s. She was organized to be superior to both Hungary and Bulgaria together. The role of Romania was to be able to resist to a Hungarian-Bulgarian attack... In the 50s, the Soviets decided to reduce its size, but in the 60s with the new independent policy via Moscow, things got back to normal. Another very powerful tool was the Securitate... An army without a competent secret service can be beaten at any moment... And also, there were the "Patriotic Guards", who were deployed in critical situations... They consted of armed civilians, ready for guerilla war. Some 13 millions of those could be deployed, alongside the army.
During the Warsaw Pact intervention in Czechoslovakia, Ceausescu deployed Patriotic Guards and mobilized the entire army. And that time, we had China behind us... At least during the 60s and the beginning of the 70s, the Romanian Army was a modern one, compatible with any Western army. With the economic crisis of the 80s (which BTW affected the entire world, not just Romania), there were less founds for modernization. But the Romanian Army was still superior to its Hungarian and Bulgarian neighbours... And it had also Tito's Yugoslavia (which had a serious army too) as ally. Getu' |
| Posted by: PanzerKing November 27, 2003 04:33 pm |
| But was there a serious threat from Bulgaria & Hungary or was it just paranoia? |
| Posted by: mabadesc November 27, 2003 05:18 pm |
| Thanks for the info, Getu.
Panzerking, I'm inclined to say it was at least partial paranoia, because the Soviets "called the shots" in Eastern Europe anyway. Having said that, however, there has always been a lot of tension between Romania and Hungary (I'm not trying to bash Hungary). And there was also the issue of Soviet forces re-entering Romania and establishing military bases, which Ceausescu resisted vehemently. |
| Posted by: dead-cat November 27, 2003 05:19 pm | ||
for a conspiracy theory fan, the most obvious thing in the world. for me however, paranoia. when things don't work you'll allways have to play the nationalistic card to keep the ppls focus from the real problems and a nationbased "us" and "them" is easily archived. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 27, 2003 05:23 pm | ||
PanzerKing wrote :
Theoretically, no. Because Hungary and Bulgaria were "socialist & friendly" nations... But reality showed something else. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Bulgaria opened very large their doors to Gorbaciov's reforms... Those were the real Soviet satelites, not Romania, who continued to pursue its own policy. During the 80s, Hungary begun to re-formulate claims on Transylvanian Hungarians etc. In 1988, at a meeting with the Yugoslavian officials, Ceausescu was very shocked when he heard that the Yugoslavians were seeking too for some "territorial modifications" or "decentralization" of Romanian Banat... As for Bulgarians, they always remained quiet, and watched how things were going (if in their interests, they could have intervened too). Especially after the 1968 events (invasion of the Czechs by Warsaw Pact except Romania), Romania suffered a real psychological warfare. Getu' |
| Posted by: mabadesc November 27, 2003 08:13 pm |
| I may be remembering things wrong, but right after the '89 revolution, weren't there some fears that Hungary might take advantage of the chaos in Romania and make a run for Transylvania? I'm thinking January, February of 1990. |
| Posted by: Dr_V November 27, 2003 10:07 pm | ||
In my opinion it wasn't just paranoia. No actual armed conflicts started, but there was a tension, mostly with Hungary. What really prevented the real conflict was that the Soviets were pulling the strings in the area and they didn't want a conflict here. At the Romanian Revolution it was a short period when Hungary could attack Romania, so in Transilvania county many units were kept in high allert till march '90. Fortunately the Hungarian leaders were wise enough to ignore the opinions of the Hungarian nationalists and other extremist fractions they had than. You see, there are about 3 milion Hungarians in Romania, over 90% of them in Transilvania, where they make about 40% of the population. There are also more than half a milion Romanians in Hungary. You can imagine that such a population distribution does create some problems. But a very important thing to underline here is that the majority of the conflicts that happened throughout history between the 2 nations were started by external political interests or small groups of extremists that rised occasionally on one side or the other. The "historical dispute" between our 2 nations is more or less missunderstood history and propaganda. Even now there are a few fools in both Romania and Hungary that live with this anachronic idea of nationalist conflict, but the large majority does not aprove their ideas. Maybe more than 99 of 100 ethnic Hungarians in Romania don't give a damn about those ideas and consider themselves Romanian citisen, being rather proud of that. The same is valid regarding Romanians living in Hungary. Of course, in any group of people there are some that can't live without blaming someone else for their lack of prosperity, but fortunately they have no significant influence. Today the Romanian and the Hungarian peole try hard to create a better future for their children and the territorial dispute was left where it should be, in the dark history. |
| Posted by: Chandernagore November 27, 2003 10:12 pm | ||
I'm not sure that a nation of 10 millions alone has much chance again one of 50 millions. We can put any hypothesis forward, fact remains that they did not try. This a very sad legacy of the past and one that can at least potentially blow up in your face. EU or NATO membership and minority rights are probably key to defuse the bomb definitively. Look at Alsace/Lorraine : this sort of grudge can last very long :? |
| Posted by: Dr_V November 27, 2003 10:57 pm | ||
Before '89 our armed forces were certainly in better condition that they are now, mostly because the iron courtaine and Ceausescu's independent policy. But there were not as powerfull as they were credited. It was a lot of propaganda too.
What are your sources Geto? I ask because it's hard to belive that there were at any time 13 milion mature men in Romania, a country that had 24 milion inhabitants in total. Over 3 milion were under 18 y.o. and other 3 milion over 65 at any moment (medical statistics, I'm sure), and the sex distribution of our population is 55% female. Were women included in our National Guards? As for the Army, before '89 the soldiers were in their majority civilians serving the 1 year military service. Only the officers and some of the petty-officers were "profesionals". And the enlisted civilians were poorly trained, many were used to agricultural work in their year of military training and only fiered a few shots in a shooting range once or twice. That lead to the famos confusion that ruled our Army during the Revolution. That was a rather good thing, as the victims could be more numerous if the army was more organised. In the end I'll tell you a story that I consider significant to ilustrate the fighting value of an average Army unit at the time of the '89 Revolution. At that time I was 11 y.o. and spending my winter holydays at my grandparents in Dambovitza county. In a village 2 km. away was military base hosting an armored unit wich had 24 T34s and a motorised infantry unit, equipped with about 20 TABs (at Laculete, near Targoviste). The unit was ordered to take deffensive positions blocking the road to Sinaia in a point about 5 km. away. Their vehicles were in such a good condition that only 5 tanks could really reach the ordered position, as the 6th one that moved through the gate got stuck on the road after a few hundreed meters, loosing a track. They were joined by 12 TABs [TAB=amphibious armored infantry transport, a wheeld vehicle, armed with one heavy MG] and the rest of the unit was deployed on foot, marching to their destination. After the Revolution I've heared that only 2 tanks could actually engage in combat, as the others had major mechanical problems. What can I say, the only thing that they did was to entertain the large group of kids that I was part of at that time. |
| Posted by: Geto-Dacul November 27, 2003 11:59 pm | ||||||
Chandernagore wrote :
Romania had unfortunately not 50 millions inhabitants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After the last census, she has no more than 21.6 millions! Check : www.recensamant.ro/ Dr_V wrote :
I hope you're joking here... The 3 millions Hungarians idea is agitated by extremist Hungarians... Check you too here : www.recensamant.ro/ Officially, there are some 1.4 million Magyar-Romanians. As for the 500.000 Romanians of Hungary... Hmmm... I heard that today they are not more than 20.000. In the Géographie Universelle Larousse Tome Premier 1958, page 247, Romanians were mentionned to be 400.000. And in 1930, they were 800.000... Romanians were assimilated.
Unfortunately, I do not have the exact source, but I know that women too could be enlisted. My mother too did a kind of military training for this. Regards, Getu' |
| Posted by: Chandernagore November 28, 2003 12:03 am | ||
Bah, I was only 30 millions away |
| Posted by: Dr_V November 28, 2003 12:52 am | ||
| For Getu
The numbers I used are not official. But you must remember that at the last population count the nationality was declared by all as they wanted to. There were many Hungarians that declared themselves as Romanians to escape for good from the ages-long dispute that involves them. Those were mainly the men that anyway felt that they belong to the Romanian nation and wanted their children not to feel different in the country they live. I've got the aproximate number from a friend who is a sociologyst and an ethnic Hungarian. He declared himself as Romanian and is very proud of that. In Hungary there are only 20.000 or so Romanians if you consider the Hungarian official count. I believe you agree it's not accurate. In the last cople of yeras more than 100.000 Romanians emigrated in Hungary and many were not ethnic Hungarians. But the majority of the ethnic Romanians in Hungary prefered to be registered as Hungarians, maybe for the same reasons that ethnic Hungarians in Romania consider themselves Romanians. And many otheres were officially registered as Hungarians even if they don't agree with that, it seams that in our neighboring country the politics dictate that there must be restered as few Romanians as possible. You know that in my oppinion this is a childish attitude, but bad habbits die hard.
That was true untill 1980 or so. Funny, owr "beloved" leader probably did believed that those women that made 3 months of "training" were able to fight in a war. It's one of the many absurde ideas that governed that period. Hmmm...maybe they did thaught they could mobilise 13 milion fighters
My mother also made that PtAP training and as she was a colledge graduate she received a reserve officer rank that was upgraded according to her progress in the medical rank. Now she's a proffesor in internal medicine and was promoted to Major in her reserve military rank. Sometimes she makes fun of my father who is still a Lieutenant, as he refused to attend to a suplementary military stage that would have granted his rank of Major when he became a doctor in medicine (only men have to do that suplementary stage of 2 months).
At the military stage my father harvested corn and my mother grapes on the famos IAS communist farms. They saw the first tank at the Revolution. My mother has even a "sniper" diploma (they were shooting with compressed-air guns at training), but she can't tell a rifle from a shotgun.
Oh, the funnyest thing is that even now they're both registered as reserve officers, thaugh they're civilian doctors. They make a lot of fun on that when they meet with some friends that are active Army officers. |
| Posted by: inahurry November 28, 2003 05:00 am |
| 1.6-1.7 million Hungarians, including Hungarian speaking gypsies and the Secuii/Szekely (who practically disappeared into the Hungarian minority). Not even close to 40% in Transylvania ( less than 25%) and about 7% from the entire Romania’s population.
But I think the initial post’s question was a bit more specific. The man would like to know about forces, organization, weapons, armaments industry. Briefly, we weren’t the poor country version of Russia and this can be easily proved with the military industry. Russians were better, no doubt, but Romania achieved a lot in a short time and its ambitions were important. The technical designs copied sometimes or at the beginning the Russian models but this was often a logical path. Nevertheless, a major goal was to be independent if possible so even the copies after Russian armament included not only improvements but retro-engineering where the Russians didn’t give enough information, not unlike the way was modernized the Mig-21. It turned we wanted to be more ambitious than we could afford but the financing of military build-up (partial) through exports of weapons offered a rather stable way for further development. There was no paranoia and Ceausescu wasn’t the one deciding in technical matters, that is pure propaganda. As for what happened in December 1989 and after, culminating with March 1990 and the (little known) army intervention at Tirgu Mures without explicit order from the political leaders, I think, like it or not, we’ll be forced to wait for more relaxed times to sort it out. |
| Posted by: mabadesc November 28, 2003 06:58 pm | ||
Inahurry said:
Can you (or anybody) please post a brief summary of what happened? I've heard something about those events, but this was a while ago and I only vaguely remember it. I really am interested in finding out more about it (there's no irony or trick question here). Thanks in advance. |
| Posted by: Victor November 28, 2003 07:52 pm |
| I cannot say how it differed from the Red Army, because I am not familiar with its organization during the Cold War. But I can say a few words on the Romanian army in that period.
After the initial period of purges (of the royal army officers) and the copying of the Soviet model, from the late 50s and early 60s things started to change. The system of military regions adopted in 1947 was replaced by the recreation of the army commands. The NCO corps was also recreated, as were the NCO schools, which led to better trained and more capable NCOs. An air defense command was also formed in 1956, to better coordinate the available resources. The Patriotic Guards comprised theoretically of every man (under 60) or woman (under 55), who had received some mandatory military training. The detachments were under the command of the Communist Party structures and were led by reserve officers and NCOs. |
| Posted by: petru November 29, 2003 02:53 am |
| In my opinion the Romanian army of that era was well oversized. Most of the regular troops were used in agricultural work, and they were in general pretty low quality. Probably there were some military units better trained and on combat readiness. The Securitate units were much better equipped and trained. Probably some units like the paratroopers or the mountain troops which were considered a kind of elite had a better training. I think there were also some big mechanized units which had a number of tanks on combat readiness. A petty officer was telling me that there tanks used for training and the same number of tanks (there were 20 in that unit) sealed and ready for action anytime.
In terms of weaponry the main battle tank was the T-55 for a long time. At revolution there was a number of T-72 (I have heard of 30, but I don’t know the numbers). I don’t know whether TR-85 a drastically change of the T-55, equipped with a longer gun were available in any number in 1989. There were some good Romanian made helicopters, but there were no ground attack helicopters (like the American Cobra) as Soviet Union was reluctant to provide that kind of weapon to Romania. There were not too many offensive weapons in Romania. Today there is a program meant to update the Romanian helicopters and to give them some antitank capabilities, but this is not a new helicopter designed for the sole purpose of destroying tanks. |
| Posted by: PanzerKing December 01, 2003 09:24 pm |
| Thanks for all the imput on the paranoia question. |
| Posted by: BobM December 04, 2003 11:58 pm |
| Gents
Thanks for the replies - though I'm not sure I needed to know quite that much about Romanian ethnicography 
Two posters mention tank units with 20 or 24 tanks. Standard Soviet tank battalions had 30 tanks since the 60's, before that 21 tanks. Does anyone know how many were supposed to be in aRomanian battalion? Cheers Bob |
| Posted by: Dan Po February 24, 2004 10:06 pm | ||||
Im agree with you :cheers: . What about the hungarian - romanian batallion ? I read in at interview with gen Gusa who was the comander (legaly) of the romanian army in december 89 that in 89 the soviet troops from Hungary was changet their position in order to have a better offensive possitions against Romania. Also, in autumn of 89 was a few violations of romanian aerian space by some simulated aircrafts from south and west ... evidently preparations from the large scale simulated atacks from december ... |
| Posted by: Petrus October 14, 2004 09:44 am |
| It is a pity that nobody has answered here the initial question: How was the Romanian Army being organized during the Cold War? Regards, Petrus |
| Posted by: Imperialist June 23, 2006 03:55 pm | ||
I just stumbled on some numbers that put Getu's opinion in doubt. In 1981 Romania had 1,980 tanks, while Bulgaria had 2,060 and Hungary 1,230. In 1987 Romania had only 1,430 tanks, Bulgaria 2,100 and Hungary 1,300. Obviously Romanian panzer forces were not at all superior to Hungary and Bulgaria taken together. Qualitatively, in the same period Romania added 50 new tanks to its armoured forces (probably T-72s?), while Bulgaria added 140, and Hungary 70. |
| Posted by: serban June 24, 2006 04:45 pm |
| To answer BobM's initial question: I found some information about the Romanian army in "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Strategy, Tactics and Weapons of Russian Military Power" published in 1982 by Bonanza Books and edited by Ray Bonds. In discussing the Warsaw Pact countries the author underlines the contrast between the "northern tier" (Poland, Czechoslovakia, and East Germany) and the "southern tier" (Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria). About Romania he states: "Rumania has worked hard to loosen these ties (with the Soviet Union), refusing to remove Rumanian troops from tight national control and resisting all attempts at Soviet military integration, least of all having Soviet troops even on exercise on Rumanian territory. The Rumanian army, in urgent need of modern weapons, comprises two tank divisions and seven motor-rifle divisions, two Alpine brigades and an airborne brigade, with about 1,700 tanks: the airforce, which has a small amount of western equipment and is developing a joint Rumanian-Yugoslave fighter, amounts to about 430 aircraft. The Rumanian navy is a light costal defence force with six corvettes, minesweepers and fast patrol boats." Serban |
| Posted by: serban June 24, 2006 04:46 pm |
| The author provides a rather comprehensive table of equipment in use by the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. One part of this table describes the “priority allotted to Non-Soviet Warsaw Pact armies for quality/ quantity of equipment supplied by the USSR. (The figures indicate total equipment to date, not during the year in question)” 1963 1 Poland 2 Czech 3 Bulgaria 4 Hungary 5 Romania 6 E. Germany 1967 1 Czech 2 Poland 3 Hungary 4 Bulgaria 5 E. Germany 6 Romania 1971 1 Poland 2 Czech 3 Hungary 4 E. Germany 5 Bulgaria 6 Romania 1976 1 Poland 2 E. Germany 3 Czech 4 Bulgaria 5 Hungary 6 Romania He adds: “the low positions of Czechoslovakia and Hungary on the list reflect the large amount of equipment produced for these armies in Eastern European arms factories. In effect, of all East European armies, only Romania’s was not fully modernized by early 1976. The improvement in East German Army’s equipment was most marked of all the Warsaw Pact Armies.” Serban |
| Posted by: serban June 24, 2006 04:48 pm |
| “ARMY WEAPONS Romania: Total Armed Forces 167,000 MOD troops, 45,000 Border troops and Ministry of Interior troops, 700,000 Volunteer militia, 500,000 Reserves Ground Forces 139,000 (16-months National Service Period) Romania is the only Warsaw Pact country to have reduced its defence expenditure over the past 5 years, and her army is deficient in many items of modern equipment. There is little domestic production of AFVs. The BTR-60 has recently been produced under licence. 2 Tank Divs.; 8 Motor Rifle Divs.; 2 mountain regiments; 1 Airborne battalion (40 percent at full strength; 60 per cent at 50 to 30 per cent strength.) Weapons Equipment Tanks: T-55/ T-54, T-34 1,800 Battle Recce vehicles: BTR-40, PT-76, OT-65 APCs: BTR-50, 60, 152; OT-810, 62 300 Artillery: 76mm, 85mm, 100mm, 122mm, 130mm, 152mm guns; 85mm and 100mm obsolescent SP guns; 120mm mortars; 132mm Czech MBRL Frog 4, Scud A SSM 57mm, 85mm, 100mm A-Tk guns; Snapper and Sagger ATGW ZSU 57-2 SPAA guns 37, 57 and 100 mm AA guns. Frontal Aviation 12 Hound Helicopters; 180 FGA aircraft – MiG 15/17/19/21; 30 Transport aircraft (Il 14 and Il 18).” Comparably Hungary and Bulgaria are listed as having similar number of tanks but these two have significantly more armored vehicles (2,200 – Hungary, 2000 – Bulgaria). The Romanian Air force appears to be somewhat larger, but similarly equipped. Serban |
| Posted by: Iamandi June 26, 2006 07:54 am |
| We have ZSU-57/2? Iama |
| Posted by: Zayets June 26, 2006 08:14 am | ||
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Russe/vehicule_artillerie/ZSU-57-2/ZSU-57-2_Russie_description.htm says we have. What numbers, don't know |
| Posted by: Odzava November 19, 2006 12:45 am |
| Hi, guys I'm new here, so want to appologise if I spoil your discussion with my question. I'm making a naval history sait. You may see it here - vimpel.boinaslava.net. He is in bulgarian only for now, but he is orientated on the bulgarian users on the first place. Writing for our corvetes clss Poti I couldn't find all the numbers of soviet ships sold in Bulgaria. I know that Romania receive 3 ships of this class. Does anybody know the numbers of soviet ships sold to Romania. That will help me to specify nomber of bulgarian ships using Berejnoy's reference book for a small patrol and antisubmarine vessels. About the Bulgarian threat to Romania from 50's to 80's I think it's more paranoia than reality. Bulgarian army were orientated from 1944 to 90's against Turkey and Greace. In Northen Bulgaria were not infantry or tank divisions. Thay were lokated in south Bulgaria. And all of the millitary exercises that are lead espetially in 80's are orientated in south. |
| Posted by: chico20854 December 27, 2007 02:39 pm | ||
Hi! Sorry to ressurect a near-dead thread, but I'd like your feedback and corrections on what I've been able to dig up on the Romanian Army during the Cold War. I've got the outline of an order of battle at the time of the Revolution in 1989. If you could let me know of any errors, additions or other information (like what equipment types units had), that would be great. And if someone has pointers on where to find more complete information, I'd appreciate that too. So here goes what I've found so far: Central Reporting ???: 30th Guards Rgt (Bucharest): 2 mech inf bns (TAB-77), 1 SF co Brigada 2 Vanatori de Munte "Sarmizegetusa" (2nd Mtn Brigade) - Brasov 20th, 21st & 22nd Mountain Hunter Bns Brigada 61 Vanatori de Munte (61st Mtn Brigade) - Miercurea Ciuc Brigada 1 Vanatori de Munte (1st Mtn Brigade) - ??? Brigada 4 Vanatori de Munte (4th Mtn Brigade) (Curtea de Arges) 33rd VM Battalion Brigăzii 3 Paraşutişti HQ for para rgts??? Regimentul 6 Parasutisti? - Câmpia Turzii? Regimentul 56 Parasutisti - Caracal Regimentul 60 Parashuti Rgt "Bãneasa-Otopeni" - Boteni Regimentul 64 Parasutisti - Buzau 1st Army: HQ Bucharest 1st Border Guard Rgt (Brigazii 1 Graniceri) - Giugiu Divizia 1 Mecanizată (Bucharest) 1st Mech Rgt 2nd Mech Rgt 3rd Mech Rgt? 20th Tank Rgt - Pantelimon: TR-580 333rd AA Bn Divizia 57 Blindate (57th Armored Div) - Pitesti? Regimentul 22 tancuri (Ploesti or Pitesti?) Regimentul 7 Mecanizat - Prahova 96th Artillery Rgt??? - Pitesti???? 2nd Army: HQ Buzua 32nd Operational-Tactical Missile Bde (Brigazii de Rachete Operativ-Tactice) (Tecuci): 8 SCUD-A 10th Engineer Bde (Braila?) 3rd Border Guard Bde (Brigazii 3 Graniceri) - Iasi Brigăzii/Rgt 17 Artilerie (Barlad) 202nd Chemical Defense Bn (Batalionul 202 Protectie Antichimica) (Husi) 8th Artillery Cannon Brigade (Focsani): 1st Heavy Artillery Rgt: D-20 howitzers 15th Heavy Artillery Rgt Diviziei 67 Mecanizate (Braila) 282nd Mech Rgt (Focsani) 267th Tank Rgt (Galati) - Bn strength??? Batalionul 528 Cercetare (528 Recon Bn) - Braila 3rd AA Misile Bn (Divizionului 3 Rachete Antiaeriene) - Brãila Diviziei 10 Mecanizate "Ştefan cel Mare" (Iaşi) Regimentul 33 mecanizat "Alexandru cel Bun" (Botoşani) 15th Mech Rgt "Razboieni"(Iasi) Regimentului 38 mec (Piatra Neamt) Diviziei 9 Mecanizată (Constanta) 34th Mech Rgt (Topraisar) Regimentului 36 mecanizat "Vasile Lupu" - Harsova, Constanta county Regimentul 10 Mecanizat - Slobozia Regimentul 18 Tancuri (Basarabi) T-55/TR-85 3rd Army: HQ Craiova 49th Chemical Protection Bn (Batalionul 49 Protectie Antichimicã) (Pitesti) 9th Border Guard Brigade (Brigazii 9 Graniceri) - Timisoara Diviziei 18 Mecanizate "Decebal" (Timisoara) Regimentul 32 Mecanizat "Mircea" - Timisoara Regimentul 90 Mechanizat - Lugoj Regimentul 106 Mecanizat Batalionului 169 Cercetare (169th Recon Bn) 34th AA Bn Unidentified Rgt (Chisoda) - or is this the 32nd Rgt?? Diviziei 90 Mecanizată or is it Diviziei 19 Mecanizată "Ziridava" (Craiova)? Regimentul 114 Mecanizat "Rahova" - Vanju Mare Regimentului 26 Mecanizat “Rovine” - Craiova 4th Army: HQ Cluj-Napocal 37th Operational-Tactical Missile Bde (Ineu): 8 SCUD-A Regimentul 50 Rachete Antiaeriene ,"Andrei Muresanu" - Clujol Brigada 5 Vanatori de Munte (5th Mountain Brigade) - Alba Iulia 26th VM Bn (Brad) 69th Artillery Brigade (Şimleu Silvaniei)?? Regimentul 7 Artilerie Regimentul 612 Artilerie Antitanc - 612th AT Rgt. (Baia Mare?) Divizia 6 Tancuri "Horia,Cloşca şi Crişan" (Târgu Mureş) Regimentul 2 Tancuri (Târgu Mureş) Regimentul 6 Tancuri "Ion Buteanu"??? Regimentul 51 Tancuri??? - Turda??? Regimentul 227 Mecanizat - Someseni/Cluj Diviziei 11 Mecanizate "Carei" (Oradea) 19th Mech Rgt (Arad) U/I Tank Rgt (Oradea) 58th AA Bn (Oradea)?? 119th Recon Battalion (Oradea)??? Divizia 81 Mecanizată (Dej) Regimentului 315 Artilerie? Unidentified Mech Rgt (Bistrita) Batalionul 55 Rachete si Artilerie Antiaeriana (Dej)???? Units needing locations & HQs: Regimentul 60 Regimentul 84 Grăniceri "Ştefan cel Mare şi Sfânt” Batalionul de Infanterie Marina, Babadag, Tulcea Special MP Unit 67 (Bucharest) Batalionul 452 Constructii Locuinte (452nd Engineer Bn) Infantry units: (some may be post-Cold War units) Batalionului 2 Infanterie Batalionului 3 Infanterie Regimentul 4 Mecanizat Batalionului 21 Infanterie Batalionului 23 Infanterie Batalionului/Rgt 29 Infanterie Regimentul 31 Infanterie Mecanizata Brigăzii/Rgt 33 Mecanizată Brigăzii/Rgt 40 Mecanizate Batalionului 42 Infanterie Brigăzii/Rgt 85 Infanterie Brigade/Rgt 95 Infanterie Regimentul 148 "Mihai Viteazul" (may not exist) Batalionului 151 Infanterie 156 Mech Rgt Batalionului/Rgt 191 Infanterie - Arad?? Brigăzii/Rgt 230 Infanterie Moto Batalionului 231 Infanterie Batalionului/Rgt 256 Infanterie Regimentul 301 Mecanizat Tank units: Regimentul 1 tancuri Batalionului 1 Tancuri Brigăzii/Rgt 5 Tancuri Brigăzii/Rgt 7 Tancuri Brigăzii/Rgt 63 Tancuri Regimentul 68 Tancuri - bn strength Batalionului 633 Tancuri - 3rd Bn, 63rd Tank Rgt??? Artillery Units: Brigăzii/Rgt 1 Artilerie Brigăzii/Rgt 13 Artilerie Regimentul 17 Rachete Semenic (Reşiţa) 43 Arty Bde 295th Artillery Rgt - 122mm howitzers Anti-tank units: Brigăzii/Rgt 9 Artilerie Antitanc Divizionului 12 Artilerie Antitanc Brigăzii/Rgt 24 Artilerie Antitanc Brigăzii/Rgt 29 Artilerie Antitanc Brigăzii/Rgt 65 Artilerie Antitanc Brigăzii/Rgt 79 Artilerie Antitanc Regimentul 82 Artilierie Antitanc Anti-aircraft units (some may be national air defense forces): Brigăzii/Rgt 1 Rachete Antiaeriene Mixtă 4th AA Bde 5th AA Bde 6th AA Bde Regimentul 12 Rachete Antiaeriene (Galati) Brigăzii 14 Artilerie Antiaeriană Regimentului 15 Rachete Antiaeriene Regimentului 17 Rachete Antiaeriene regiment 47 de artilerie antiaerianã 48th SAM Rgt Regimentului 51 Rachete Antiaeriene Regimentului 53 Rachete Antiaeriene Regimentului 137 Artilerie Antiaeriană Regimentului 164 Artilerie Antiaeriană Divizionul 205 Artilerie Antiaerianã Recon units: Batalionului 185 Cercetare Batalion 313 Cercetare Batalion 317 Cercetare Batalion 404 Cercetare Batalionului 422 Cercetare Engineer unit: Regimentului 3 Geniu |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 15, 2009 11:18 pm |
| About the romanian army to&e in 1989 I believe I can offer this : 1st Army HQ Bucharest 1st and 9th Mechanised Divisions, 57th Tank Division, 4th Mountain Brigade, 43th Tactical Missile Brigade, 2nd Army HQ Buzau 10th and 67th Mechanised Divisions, 32 Tactical Missile Brigade, 8th and 17th Artillery Brigades, 2nd Mountain Brigade, 3rd Army HQ Craiova 2nd and 18th Mechanised Divisions, 5th Mountain Brigade, 4th Army HQ Cluj Napoca 11th and 81th Mechanised Divisions, 6th Tank Division, 1st Mountain Brigade, 37th Tactical Missile Brigade, I am pretty sure that here are all the major tactical formations of the ground army, but without the units in reserve, activated only in case of war. Even if it look impressive this army was more a paper army with thousand of conscripts working in economy and agriculture and poor tactical training for major units. I remember very well that general Degeratu once said that in 1989 when he was an officer in the Command of 4th Army in Cluj he was really scared of the perspective of a hungarian invasion in Transilvania, which, even without soviet help, could led to a occupation of western Transilvania, up to Cluj -Dej line. Have more detalied info over divisional structure of most major units if enybody is interested. |
| Posted by: Victor March 16, 2009 08:18 am |
| Hi Andreas and welcome to the forum. Please, by all means, post more information regarding the organization of the units. Thank you. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 19, 2009 12:14 am |
| So, a more detalied structure of the Divisions, as I know until now would be: 1st Mecanised Division /Tudor Vladimirescu-Debretin/ HQ Bucharest - -1st and 2nd Mech. Rgt-s Bucharest, both with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, DAC-665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -3rd Mech. Rgt. Slatina, with TR-85 tanks, few MLI-84 ifv-s, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, DAC-444T and -665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -10th Mech. Rgt. Slobozia, with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, DAC-665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -1st Tank Rgt. Targoviste, with T-55A and few T-72 tanks, BTR-50PK and PU apc-s, SU-100M sp guns, few 2S1 122mm sp how., URAL and SR-114 trucks, -1st Artillery Rgt. -Slatina ??, M-30 122mm how, Md.1981 152mm how, few APR-40 Md1977 122mm mrls, SR-114s, DAC-443T, and some TMA-83 tractors ??, 57th Tank Division /Constantin Brancoveanu/ HQ Bucharest-Pantelimon -22nd Tank Rgt. Mihai Bravu, with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., few M120 120mm mortars, DAC-665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -20th Tank Rgt. Giurgiu, with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., few M120 120mm mortars, DAC-665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -28th Tank Rgt. Pantelimon ??, with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-77 apc-s, TABC-79 rec., few M120 120mm mortars, DAC-665T 6x6 trucks, a.o. -7th Mech. Rgt. Ploiesti with TR-85 tanks, MLI-84 ifv-s, TAB-71M and TAB-77 apc-s, few TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, some TAB-71AR with 82mm PM-37 mortars, DAC-444T and 665T trucks, -30th ?? Artillery Rgt. Videle ?? - M-30 122mm how, Md.1981 152mm how, few APR-40 Md1977 122mm mrls, SR-114s, DAC-443T, and few TAR-76 tractors ??, -2nd Mountain Brigade /Sarmizegetusa/ -Brasov command TAB-71A R-1451 apc-s, some TABC-79 rec., some MLVM-81 apc-s, Md.1982 76mm guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, AG-9 73mm rr-s, MR-2 14,5mm hmg-s, SR-114 and DAC-443T trucks, -4th Mountain Brigade /Posada/ -Curtea de Arges - almost the same as the 2nd, probably without MLVM apc-s, -43rd Tactical Missile Brigade -Marsa near Sibiu with 8K14 systems and AT-T heavy tractors -16th Artillery Regiment -Slobozia with some Md.1982 130mm guns, Md.1981 152mm how., M-160/M-1943/ 160mm heavy mortars, some APR-40 /Md.1977/ 122mm mrls, some ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, -29th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Alexandria with some Md.1975 100mm atg-s, 9P122 BRDM-based atgw-s, some BRDM-2U command, some ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, -1st Engineer Regiment -Ramnicu Valcea with PR-71/DAC-665G pontoon bridge system, BAT-M bulldozers, IMR machines, some TCG-80 rec. vehicles, -2nd Pontoon Regiment -Turnu Magurele with PR-71/DAC-665G pontoon bridge system, -48th Communication Regiment -Bucharest -?? army-level reccon bataillon with BRDM-2 vehicles for 1st Army HQs. next time i will come with info about the 2nd Army |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 20, 2009 10:09 pm |
| 2nd Army HQ Buzau -integrated to the WP command in case of war, -9th Mechanised Division /Marasesti/-HQ Constanta, -34th Mech. Rgt.-Topraisar with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -36th Mech. Rgt.-Medgidia with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M and few TAB-77 apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -40th Mech. Rgt.-Mihail Kogalniceanu with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -18th Tank Rgt.-Basarabi with TR-77 tanks, some BTR-50PK and PU-2 (command), TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., SU-100 sp guns, few M-120 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-443T and SR-114/-132 trucks, -13th Arty. Rgt.-Medgidia with M-30 122mm how., Md.1981 152mm. how., some APR-40 122mm mrls, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and TMA-83 tractors, -185th Rec. Btl.-Medgidia with TABC-79 and DAC-443T trucks, -?? Antitank Arty Btl -Topraisar -203th Tactical Missile Btl. -16th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Cobadin ?? with Md.1977 100mm at guns, 9P122 BRDM atgm systems, ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, DAC-665T trucks, BRDM-2U command vehicles, -67th Mechanised Division /Siret/-HQ Braila, -301st Mech. Rgt.-Galati with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -282nd Mech. Rgt.-Focsani with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M and few TAB-77 apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -321st Mech. Rgt.-Ramnicu Sarat with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -267th Tank Rgt.-Braila with TR-77 tanks, some TAB-71M, TABC-79A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., few M-120 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-443T and SR-114/-132 trucks, -285th Arty. Rgt.-Braila with M-30 122mm how., ML-20 152mm. how., some APR-21 122mm mrls, SR-114/-132 Bucegi trucks and AT-S tractors, -528th Rec. Btl.-Braila with TABC-79 and DAC-443T trucks, -?? Antitank Arty Btl -Galati -10th Mechanised Division /Stefan cel Mare/-HQ Iasi, -15th Mech. Rgt.-Iasi with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TAB-71A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., Md.1982 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -33rd Mech. Rgt.-Botosani with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71 and few BTR-60PB apc-s, TAB-71A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., M-120 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TAB-71AR 82mm sp mortars, -38th Mech. Rgt.-Piatra Neamt with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71M apc-s, TAB-71A R-1451 command, TABC-79 rec., M-120 120mm mortars, MR-4 14,5mm aa hmg-s, AG-9 73mm. rr-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, DAC-444T/-665T trucks and some TABC-AR 82mm sp mortars, -29th Tank Rgt.-Roman /?? uncertain/ with T-55 tanks, some BTR-50PK, BTR-50PU command, BTR-60PU-s, few M-120 120mm mortars, ZU-2 14,5mm aa hmg-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, SR-114/-132 trucks, MTP/BTR-50P evac. -63rd Tank Rgt.-Bacau with T-55 tanks, BTR-50PK, BTR-50PU command, BRDM-2s, SU-100M sp guns, ZU-2 14,5mm aa hmg-s, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, SR-114/-132 trucks, MTP/BTR-50P evac. and SU-100T tractors, -3rd Arty. Rgt.-Bacau with M-30 122mm how., D-20 152mm. how., Skoda M1934 150mm., some APR-21 122mm mrls, SR-114/-132 Bucegi trucks and AT-S tractors, and some other army units will follow... |
| Posted by: MMM March 21, 2009 07:18 am |
If you don't mind my question - how on Earth did you find out all these details? For knowing that twenty years ago, you would have faced serious espionnage charges...  |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 21, 2009 11:49 pm |
| Well, I am a curious person and had a big chance to meet and even be friend with 2-3 really good informed ex-officers: one ex-rocket officer from Ineu Brigade, one ex-intelligence officer from Timisoara Mechanised Division and a relative from my family who, God forgive him, recently died. No conection with those informations, I guess. And a lot of reading from military press -I mean here Observatorul Militar from 1991 till 2000. You can't believe how much information you can find if you know where to look. Let me give you an exemple, you may find amusing : in the newspaper Observatorul Militar after 1995 you can read at commemoration/necrology of certain officers announcements like: the collective of the former 3rd Artillery Regiment from Bacau regrets the death of major Dumitrescu who ... or: the 1978year officer promotion of the 38th Mechanised Regiment from Piatra Neamt announce that all the officers are waited at ... at the 20th anniversary of ... and so on. This mean to be patient and interested in this matter and since highschool I was really interested to know how much trough or fantasy lies between the 1968 laser story -if you know what I mean- and the 1989 revolution -or what it was. Knowing my army capabilities was a must in the 1990-1993 years when Hungary /for us in the western Transilvania/ or the 14th Army from Transnistria seemed to be a real danger. That's triggered my curiosity and my interest. So this story begins. |
| Posted by: MMM March 22, 2009 07:41 am |
| Wow! So you're a person who could become a spy... Of course, the fact that so many data could be retrieved from public newspapers (such as Observatorul Militar, which I guess could be bought by a civilian) is in itself a "security breach", don't you think so? I don't know about the 1968 laser story. What was that? Regarding the Romanian Revolution, I had my disertation degree on the subject (a comparison between army's involvement in 1907 and 1989). An ex-proffesor, colonel Aurel Pentelescu, was of a real help to me (still is now as well, as I'm in my second year at PHD studies - in Iaşi Univ.) and gave me some good books about the Army in december 1989: 1. CODRESCU, Costache (coordonator) – Armata Română în Revoluţia din decembrie 1989. Studiu documentar. Ediţia a II-a revăzută şi completată, Ed. Militară, Bucureşti, 1998; 2. SAVA, Constantin; MONAC, Constantin – Revoluţia din decembrie 1989 percepută prin documentele vremii. Ed. Axioma Edit, Bucureşti, 2000. They are really documenteds books, although the "silver lining" in both of them is to put the army in a favourable light...  |
| Posted by: Dénes March 22, 2009 08:12 am | ||
Andreas, would you care to explain us your above statement? AFAIK, the Hungarian Army was the first to jump to the help of the beleaguered Rumanian army in late December 1989, flying in supplies and small arms, as requested by Bucharest. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Victor March 22, 2009 08:19 am |
| MMM, Most of the info in http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1583 was also retrieved from current military publications, available online. You can be sure that those interested know the OoB very well |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 22, 2009 01:50 pm |
| Hello Gen. Denes, To answer you quickly about the perception of a hungarian threat, is very easy to me. First, I agree that in reality the military hungarian-romanian relations after 1993-94 were excellent, we all remember Cer senin agreement, but the peoples feeling were no exactly friendly. Probably you don't know the arguments between the romanian and hungarian military jurnalist -for instance Valeriu Pricina from the TV Ora Armatei or Gheorghe Vaduva from Observatorul Militar on one side, and the Panorama weekly jurnal from MTV/Magyar Televisio/ or several Duna TV transmissions, or Magyar Hirlap articles, about the hungarians bad treatment in Romania or even the poor trained bad equipped romanian army. And please don't forget about Gheorghe Funar the mayor of Cluj or the general Paul Cheler -the commander of our 4th Army from Transilvania, which caused serious damage with their statements. That's what I am talking about. And about the threat of the russian 14th Army I hope nobody needs explanation... For MMM, Hallo, To answer you about the 1968 laser story -or the laser legend- a popular rumour said that Romania used a secret weapon -a laser based one- to damage hundreds of soviet tanks and armor massed near our borders, prepared to invade our country. The vehicles were unable to move and probably that's why Romania wasn't invaded  Yeah, our secret technology... I's a popular legend that I heared of from my parents, many friends and even former army officers ... unbelievable isn't it? About the books you spoke about, I also read the SAVA and MONAC one, it was credible until I read the 2 volumes Alex Mihai Stoenescu -Istoria Loviturilor de Stat in Romania IV, which is the most credible of them all. |
| Posted by: MMM March 22, 2009 01:57 pm |
| Right! I guess there should be another topic about the secrecy of the data regarding the army - I mean, it is clear that now, with Google Earth and all those "Big Brother" stuff available! Good job! |
| Posted by: Dénes March 22, 2009 03:14 pm |
| So, Andreas, if I understand it correctly, actually there was no real military threat from Hungary, only the politicians and journalists wanted this to seem a real danger. Gen. Dénes P.S. I don't know first hand of any of the mediatic events you mentioned, as I left Rumania during the Ceausescu regime. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 22, 2009 08:09 pm |
| Hallo Gen. Denes, Yes, that's the idea, but in the early '90, in Romania, and in particular in Transilvania, it was a tense climate of mutual distrust, not between the neighbour families /romanian and hungarian/ but about the countries, and some believed that a hungarian military intervention was not unbelievable. And I remember very well that in sommer 1992, when I was in highschool, the history teacher tells us that he fears a combined intervention of the russian 14th Army from Transnistria and a hungarian invasion. This was for real the believe of some people, even if it sounds incredible... Hallo Victor, As I promised I will continue to write the data about the romanian army to&e in 1989. Please tell me if you are interested about the aviation and antiaircraft units to&e, or should I stop sending this. Thank you. The 2nd Army Command -direct subordinated units: -8th Artillery Brigade -Focsani : 2 battalions with 130mm Md.1982 guns, 3 battalions with 152mm Md.1981 howitzers, 1 MRL battalion with APR-40 122mm mrls, 1 heavy mortar battery with 240mm M-1953 mortars, aa gun battery with Md.1988 2x30mm aa guns, 1 x 1RL232 SNAR-10 artillery locating radar vehicle, 2-3 TAB-71A R-145 command vehicles, possible some BMP PRP-3 mobile recon vehicles, many trucks and tractors, -17th Artillery Brigade -Barlad : same as the 8th Brigade -32th Tactical Missile Brigade -Tecuci : 1 battalion with 8K14 Elbrus systems, based on 2P19 a modified ISU-152K chassis, 2 battalions with 9K52 Luna-M systems, based on PT-76 chassis, -65th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Galati : with Md.1977 100mm at guns, 9P133 BRDM atgw-s, ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, DAC and SR trucks, BRDM-2U command vehicles, -79th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Marasesti : with Md.1977 100mm at guns, 9P133 BRDM atgw-s, ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, DAC and SR trucks, BRDM-2U command vehicles, -3rd Engineer Regiment -Buzau : with one pontoon-bridge battalion based on PR-71/DAC-665G, BAT-M bulldozers, IMR engineer tanks, MDK-2M sapper vehicles, posible UR-67 mine-clearing vehicles, TCG-80 recon vehicles based on TABC, -72th Pontoon Bridge Regiment -Braila : with 2 pontoon-bridge battalions based on PR-71/DAC-665G, no further information -47th Communications Regiment -Buzau : no information available The 3nd Army Command -Craiova : -u/i recon battalion -2nd Mechanised Division /Mihai Viteazul/ -Craiova : -26th Mech. Rgt. -Craiova : with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71/-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, ?? SU-76 sp guns, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-800 evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, -114th Mech. Rgt. -Vanju Mare -same -257th Mech. Rgt. -Plenita -same -68th Tank Rgt. -Caracal : with TR-85 tanks, TAB-71 apc-s, TAB-71A R-1451 command, TABC-79 recon vehicles, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-800 evacuation tanks, MT-55 bridge tank, -9th Artillery Regiment -Drobata Turnu-Severin : with M-30 122mm how., Md.1981 152mm how., APR-40 122mm mrls, SR-114 and DAC-444 trucks, TMA-83 arty tractors, TABC-79A-POMA and TAB-77A-PCOMA command vehicles, -121th Recon Battalion -Craiova : with TABC-79 recon vehicles and DAC-444T trucks, -325th Antitank Artillery Battalion -Caracal : with Md.1975 100mm at guns, 9P122 BRDM atgw-s, SR-132 trucks, ATS-59 tractors, -18th Mechanised Division /Decebal/ -Timisoara : -32nd Mech. Rgt. -Timisoara : with T-55 /T-55AM2 tanks, TAB-71M and TAB-77 apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, T-55T evacuation tank, TERA-71L/-77L recovery apc-s, -18th Mech. Rgt. -Caransebes : with T-54 and T-55 tanks, TAB-71 and BTR-60PB apc-s, BRDM-2 recon vehicles, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1943 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, SR-114D and DAC-443T trucks, T-55T evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, ?? MT-55 bridge tank, -90th Mech. Rgt. -Lugoj : with T-55 tanks, TAB-71 and TAB-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? 82mm Md.1977 mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, SR-114D and DAC-443T trucks, T-55T evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, ?? MT-55 bridge tank, -44th Tank Regiment -Giroc : with T-55 /T-55AM2 tanks, BTR-50PK and PU-2 apc-s, BRDM-2 recon vehicles, BTR-60 R-145BM command vehicle, ZU-2 14,5mm aa hmg-s, SR-114D and DAC-443T trucks, T-55T evacuation tank, MTP/BTR-50P recovery vehicle, -39th Artillery Regiment with M-30 122mm how, Skoda M1934 150mm how, APR-21 122mm mrl SR-based, SR-132 trucks, AT-LM tractors, -169th Recon Battalion -Timisoara : with TABC-79 recon vehicles and DAC-444T trucks, -328th Antitank Artillery Battalion -Timisoara : with D-48 85mm at guns, 9P122 BRDM atgw-s, SR-132 trucks, ATS-59 tractors, -64th AA Artillery Battalion -Timisoara : with 37mm, 57mm. S-60 aa guns, 9K31M strela-1 BRDM systems, -51th Engineer Battalion - -207th Tactical Rocket Battalion - with 2K6 Luna missile systems, reload vehicles, trucks, BTR-50PU command, Please let me know if I should continue or not. Thank you. |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino March 22, 2009 08:30 pm | ||
Andreas if you continuu to fill so many pages it means we had/have the bigest conventional armed forces in the world. It looks like you will never stop to finish your list  |
| Posted by: dragos March 22, 2009 11:54 pm |
Of course, Denes knew the situation that most people come to know as the Romanian-Hungarian crisis soon after the "revolution", staged by "Ilich"  The country needed a state security (SRI) and a nationalistic party (PRM) to suppress the historical parties (PNL, PNT) for a new born society. |
| Posted by: MMM March 23, 2009 11:56 am | ||
Re: Denes:
- exactly this may be one of the causes for paranoids... I remember reading in many stories (a while ago, it's true) that the Romanian Revolution (I shall continue naming it like that from utter respect for the dead) was made by the secret services of USA, USSR, Hungary (the order being irrelevant), acting on our national territory. That's another ballgame, however... I repeat an earlier question to you, as Hungarian citizen: what's the name of your Vadim? Re: ANDREAS: the laser story is arguably one of the biggest and most shameless legends about 1968! I wonder what the Soviets would have said hearing this - I guess they would have "ROFL", at least; maybe even they would have thought to give us another opportunity to use our lasers by invading the country "for real". How about "The Socialist Sovietic Republic of Romania"? BRRRRR... Re: Cantacuzino: of course he should continue! After all, this could be seen as a dissuasion method for our enemies Re: dragos: You have to remember that in those days most of the people believed the TV like the Bible. Should I remember you what was "Ilich"'s percent at the elections in 1990 (at which FSN promised in december 1989 it won't run  )? Almost all Romanians believed in him - some still do even now!   Re: myself: don't answer to everybody! |
| Posted by: Soim March 23, 2009 12:27 pm |
ANDREAS, please continue with the list of romanian army in 1989.  |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 23, 2009 09:30 pm |
| The 3nd Army Command -direct subordinated units: -59th Artillery Brigade -Lugoj : 1 battalion with 122mm A-19/M-1937/ gun-how, 1 battalion with 130mm Md.1982 guns, 1 battalion with 152mm Md.1981 howitzers, 1 battalion with 152mm Md.1985 gun-how, 1 battalion with M-1943 160mm mortars, 1 mrls battery with APR-40 122mm, DAC and SR trucks and AT-S and TAR tractors, -24th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Lugoj : with Md.1977 100mm at guns, 9P133 BRDM atgw-s, ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, DAC and SR trucks, BRDM-2U command vehicles, -54th Engineer Regiment -Deva : with one pontoon-bridge battalion based on PR-60/SR-132G, BAT-M bulldozers, IMR engineer tanks, MDK-2M sapper vehicles, posible UR-67 mine-clearing vehicles, MTU-20 bridge tanks, TCG-80 recon vehicles based on TABC, -46th Communications Regiment -Craiova : no information available The 4nd Army /Transylvania/ HQ -Cluj-Napoca : -317th recon battalion -Huedin -11th Mechanised Division /Carei/ -Oradea : -21st Mech. Rgt. -Oradea : with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71/-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, SU-76 sp guns, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-580 evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, -23th Mech. Rgt. -Beius -same -19th Mech. Rgt. -Arad -same -23rd Tank Rgt. -Oradea : with TR-77 tanks, BTR-50PK and PU apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, TAB-71A R-1451 command apc, MR-2 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-580 evacuation tanks, MTP/BTR-50P recovery apc-s, -26th Artillery Regiment -Ineu : with M-30 122mm how., Md.1981 152mm how., APR-40 122mm mrls, SR-114 and DAC-444 trucks, TMA-83 arty tractors, TABC-79A-POMA and TAB-77A-PCOMA command vehicles, -119th Recon Battalion -Oradea : with TABC-79 recon vehicles and DAC-444T trucks, -81th Mechanised Division /Somes/ -Dej : -221st Mech. Rgt. -Bistrita : with T-55/A tanks, TAB-71/-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, SU-76 sp guns, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-580 evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, -223th Mech. Rgt. -Dej -same -227th Mech. Rgt. -Cluj -with TR-85M tanks, MLI-84 ifv-s, TAB-71/-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, SU-76 sp guns, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-800 evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, -230rd Tank Rgt. -Baia Mare : with T-55/A/AM2 tanks, BTR-60PB and PU apc-s, BRDM-2 recon vehicles, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, SR-114/-132, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, T-55T evacuation tanks, MTP-2/BTR-60 recovery apc-s, -315th Artillery Regiment -Simleu Silvaniei : with M-30 122mm how., Md.1981 152mm how., APR-40 122mm mrls, SR-114 and DAC-444 trucks, TMA-83 arty tractors, TAB-77A-PCOMA command vehicles, -422th Recon Battalion -Satu Mare : with TABC-79 recon vehicles and DAC-444T trucks, -424th Communication Battalion -Dej : -55th Antiaircraft Battalion -Dej : -6th Tank Division /Horea, Closca si Crisan/ -Targu-Mures : -2nd Tank Regiment -Targu Mures : with T-55/A/AM2 tanks, TAB-71M and R-1451 apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, SR-114/-132, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, T-55T evacuation tanks, MTP-2/BTR-60 recovery apc-s, -5th Tank Regiment -Turda : same as the 2nd -6th Tank Regiment -Aiud : same -4th Mechanised Regiment -Zalau : with TR-77 tanks, TAB-71/-71M apc-s, TABC-79 recon vehicles, SU-76 sp guns, ZiS-3 76mm field guns, Md.1982 120mm mortars, ?? TAB-71AR with 82mm mortars, AG-9 rr-s, MR-4 quad 14,5mm aa hmg-s, DAC-443T and -665T trucks, TER-800 evacuation tank, TERA-71L recovery apc-s, -20th Artillery Regiment -Tarnaveni ??: with with M-30 122mm how., D-20 152mm how., APR-21 122mm mrls, SR-114 and DAC-444 trucks, ATS-59G or TAR-76 arty tractors, TAB-71A-PCOMA command vehicles, -166th Recon Battalion -Targu Mures : with BRDM-2 recon vehicles and DAC-444T and SR-114D trucks, -216th AA Artillery Battalion -Targu Mures : -69th Artillery Brigade -Simleu Silvaniei : 1 battalion with 122mm A-19/M-1937/ gun-how, 1 battalion with 130mm Md.1982 guns, 2 battalions with 152mm Md.1981 howitzers, 1 battalion with M-1943 160mm mortars, 1 mrls battery with APR-40 122mm, DAC and SR trucks and AT-S and TAR tractors, -7th Artillery Regiment -Cluj : with M-30 122mm how., ML-20 152mm how., APR-40 122mm mrls, SR-114 and DAC-444 trucks, TMA-83 arty tractors, TAB-77A-PCOMA command vehicles, -612th Antitank Artillery Regiment -Baia Mare : with Md.1977 100mm at guns, 9P133 BRDM atgw-s, ATS-59G and TAR-76 tractors, DAC and SR trucks, BRDM-2U command vehicles, -52th Engineer Regiment -Alba Iulia : with one pontoon-bridge battalion based on PR-71/DAC-665G, BAT-M bulldozers, IMR engineer tanks, MDK-2M sapper vehicles, MT-55 bridge tanks, TCG-80 recon vehicles based on TABC, -55th Communications Regiment -Cluj-Napoca : no information available -1st Mountain Hunters Brigade -Bistrita : 3 mountain hunters battalions, 1 gun battalion 76mm Md.1982, 1 recce company with TABC-79, -5th Mountain Hunters Brigade -Alba Iulia : 4 mountain hunters battalions -one MLVM apc company, 1 gun battalion with 76mm Md.1982 and few 100mm Md.1988, 1 recce company with TABC-79, |
| Posted by: chico20854 March 28, 2009 06:36 am |
| Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! You certainly filled in a few blanks that I had! Thanks a ton! I was trying the same approach to finding these details, but not speaking or reading Romanian is a big hindrance! Keep up the good work! If you're bored, I'd love to learn more about the airborne and border guard units, along with any reserve units! Thanks, I'm still in shock!!!! |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 29, 2009 09:17 pm |
| So, first of all I need to say that not all this material is 100% correct. For instance a couple of days ago I spoke with a former army officer who served at an artillery regiment in Medgidia, and he was absolutely sure that the claimed 43th Rocket Brigade near Sibiu is a fantasy, but a real 43th Artillery Regiment existed at Mihai Bravu near Bucharest. He supposed that this regiment was part of the 57th Tank Division Bucharest-Pantelimon, and had new materiel like Md.1981 152mm howitsers -2 battalions and APRA-40 122mm mlrs -1 battery. This was in 1988 he claimed. Have no idea of all that. But I write it to you. Military Schools and Training Facilities -The Infantry and Armor Command -Bucharest -direct subordinated units: -The Superior Military School for Officers and Technicals -Sibiu: 1-2 command apc TAB-77A R-145-1/-2, 10-13 tanks T-55/-A and ?? TR-85, 3-5 sp guns SU-100M, 30-35 apc-s TAB-71M and TAB-77, 3 recon TABC-79, 3-6 ifv-s MLI-84, DAC-444T and 665T trucks, ...can't be sure -Infantry Training Center -Fagaras: 1-2 command apc TAB-77A R-145-1/-2, 10 tanks T-55/-A and ?? TR-85, 30 apc-s TAB-71M and TAB-77, 6-7 recon TABC-79, 10-13 ifv-s MLI-84, DAC-444T and 665T trucks,...again not sure -Military School for Reserve Officers -at Lipova /Arad and Bacau - infos only for Lipova : 3 Infantry Battalions with 62-68 TAB-71/BTR-60PB and 3-5 TAB-71A R-145 command apc-s, 3-6 BRDM-2 recon, ZiS-3 76mm field guns-1 or 2 batteries, 18 x 82mm and 6 x 120mm soviet-type mortars, 12 -18 heavy aa mg 14,5mm romanian or soviet type, 1 Tank Battalion with 21-22 tanks -T-55-100 and T-34-85, -infos from former sergeant activating there in 1989-1990. He claimed that the school had over 1.100 conscripts in 1989 and the strength of an mechanised infantry regiment. -Military School for Armor and Auto Officers -Pitesti : 1-2 command apc TAB-71A R-145-1/-2, 21-22 tanks TR-85/-M and 2-3 TR-125, 1-2 sp guns SU-100M, 10-13 apc-s TAB-71M and TAB-77, 3 recon TABC-79, 1-2 ifv-s MLI-84, DAC-444T and 665T trucks, -Artillery Training Center -Ploiesti : no info -Tank and SP Guns Training Center -Bacau ??: no infos Hallo chico20854, For you especially : The Military Aviation Command direct subordinated units /in 1989 remember/: -98th Special Objective Guard Battalion -Otopeni -airfields, facilities, -60th Paratrooper Regiment -Buzau -2 battalions, -64th Paratrooper Regiment -Titu -2 battalions, -56th Paratrooper Regiment -Caracal -2 battalions, -62th Paratrooper Regiment -Campia Turzii -2 battalions, -90th ?? Air Transport Regiment -Bucharest Otopeni- with 2 AN-12, 9 AN-24 and 14 AN-26 transport planes /in 1990/ -70th Engineer Aviation Regiment -Galati, -85th Communication (Transmission) Aviation Regiment -Bucuresti, |
| Posted by: chico20854 March 30, 2009 03:01 am |
| Thank you! I found the following equipment list - from the 1990-1991 International Institute of Strategic Studies Military Balance. I think it reflects information submitted as part of the CFE treaty data exchanges. 2817 tanks: 1060 T-34, 757 T-55, 30 T-72, 556 T-80, 414 TR-580(T-10). (I have no idea what they mean by the TR-580/T-10 - did Romania produce heavy tanks?) 430 Assault guns: 326 Su-76, 84 Su-100, 20 ISU-152. 650 recce: BRDM-1/2 127 MLI-84s. 2572 APC: 28 BTR-40, 50 BTR-60, 156 TAB-77, 387 TABC-79, 1912 TAB-71, 39 MLVM (MTLB). 3803 Artillery: 1549 Towed: 268 Skoda 100mm of various models, 87 Schneider 105mm, 496 M-30 122mm, 14 A-19 122mm, 138 Gun 8Z 130mm, 128 Skoda 150mm M-1934, 6 Model 1937 150mm, 85 D-20, 10 M-1985 152mm gun-howitzers, 61 Model 1938 152mm, 256 Model 81 152mm. 18 Self-propelled: 6 2S1, 12 Model 89. 532 rocket launchers: 134 APR-21, 290 APR-40, 108 R-2 130mm 1704 Mortars: 1126 M-120, 516 Model 1982, 50 M-160, 12 M-240 Missiles: 32 FROG, 18 SCUD 300 AT Guns: M-1943 57mm, D-44 85mm, T-12 100mm. 400 Anti-Aircraft guns: 30mm, 37mm, 57mm, 85mm and 100mm. 160 SA-6 SAMs. I'm not sure what the organization of units were (how many tanks, APCs, artillery, etc in a regiment and so on) but it looks (on paper) like an impressive amount of gear! |
| Posted by: MMM March 30, 2009 01:15 pm |
| WOW! Over 3.000 tanks and assault guns! Who cares if most of them were obsolete - I guess our local "possible" enemies had the same; as for the NATO opponents, that's another dish of food! But it's really nice to see in the same army tanks from before WW2 (such as T-34 and assault gun Su-76) and self-propelled artillery from 1989! Contrasts we're kinda used to... |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 30, 2009 08:10 pm |
| Hello chico20854, Thanks for your informations, it explaines a lot for those who doubted the size of our army the way I presented. I read somewhere that in 1990 there were around 320.000 active soldier in the army -ground, air and navy- /source: Niculae Spiroiu ex-defence minister/ and around 600.000 reserve. That's big, real big. Some corrections I wish to make in the weapon systems, the way I believe it's closer to reality: -the 556 tanks were not T-80 (EVEN IF I WISH THEY WERE), but TR-800 or TR-85 romanian made medium tanks. These are an improved version of the TR-77 or TR-580 romanian made tanks. The TR-580 or TR-77 tank was the first build romanian tank, concept drawn and even build in cooperation with China, inspired it's trough of the soviet T-55A, but also different. See chinese tank Type 80, except the gun, cvasi-identical to ours. The T-10/soviet heavy tank/ has nothing to do with the romanian TR-77/-580. Very, very interesting -romania had ISU-152 heavy sp guns. Everybody who knows more, please write it. Unit, location, year, anything. The MLVM is an mountain armoured fighting vehicle, close to BMP-1 design, but much modified, with a BTR-60PB type of turret. Totally different from soviet-made MT-LB multipurpose armored vehicles. The number for recce vehicles BRDM is enormous -but it can be real only if there were included the antitank versions BRDM with atgw. The Gun 82 130mm were in fact romanian made 'Tunul model 1982 cal. 130mm.' build in cooperation/or inspired/ with China /see chinese Type 59-I 130mm field gun/. Romania produced also the M-1985 152mm gun-howitzer, or 'Tunul-obuzier model 1985 cal.152mm.', in fact a long-range version of the 'Obuzierul model 1981 cal.152mm.', a romanian improved (??) version of soviet D-20/M-1955/ 152mm gun-howitzer. The design of 'model 1985 cal.152mm.' is somewhat similar of the jugoslav M-84 Nora-A gun-howitzer. In the antitank guns inventory the romanian 'Tunul antitanc model 1977 cal.100mm.' are missing, and definitely there were several tens of those in romanian army use in 1989. But it can be they were included in the total numbers. The 160 SA-6 a.a. missile systems are totaly unreal. But a number of 160 systems of the tipes -S-75M Volkhov, S-125M Nyeva- not including the mobile 3K9M KUB and 9K33BM2 OSA-AKM is very possible. I am pretty sure that Romania had some 60 mobile launchers KUB and around 20 more modern OSA-AKM in 1989 and over 100 S-75M Volkhov. Romania had 4 mobile aa rocket regiments in 1989, the Chitila, Braila and Craiova-based KUB regiments and the Cluj-Napoca-based OSA-AKM regiment. But thanks a lot chico, realy interesting stuff you posted. Asking everybody who read this topic : should I continue to the Aircraft and Air Defense TO&E in 1989 ? Cause I wish not to waste time to write it if nobody is interested. Thanks. |
| Posted by: chico20854 March 30, 2009 08:55 pm |
| Andreas- Glad I could help! I typed wrong with the T-80... I meant to type TR-80, just missed the "R"! I remember reading somewhere that SU-100 were assigned to army-level Anti-tank regiments, maybe the ISU-152 were too? As for tank assignments, if each tank regiment was assigned 90 tanks, the force you list would require about 90 T-72s and 2070 T-55/TR-800/TR-77/TR-58/TR-85 medium tanks. It appears to need 60 more T-72s and about 250-300 more medium tanks. Of course, there were over 1000 T-34/85s in the inventory and lots of Su-76, if the information I had is accurate. I also remember reading that T-34s were used by a unit at Laculete, near Targoviste, in 1989. A fascinating issue! For the Air Forces, please go on! I have found the following information (http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_304.shtml): "As of 1989, the AM had approximately 32.000 personnel, of which less than one third were conscripts. The air force operated 512 combat aircraft, and was responsible for transport, reconnaissance, helicopters and the national air defence system, with the primary mission of protecting and supporting the ground forces and defending the country against invasion. Divided into three tactical divisions, each of which had two regiments of two or three squadrons of interceptors and one of ground-attack aircraft, the AM mainly flew Soviet-made MiG-21s and MiG-23s, but the first MiG-29s were available as well as a large number of IAR-93s. Finally, in December 1989, just a few days before the revolution against Communism began, the first 4 MiG-29s arrived in Romania. Ianca AB 49 Fighter-Bomber Regiment - 1/49 Squadron IAR-93 - 2/49 Squadron MiG-15/S-102 Boboc AB (School of the AM) 54 School Fighter-Bomber Regiment - one squadron of L-29 - two squadrons of L-39 ZA Mihail Kogalniceanu (Black Sea) 57 Fighter Regiment - 1/57 Squadron, MiG-29A/29UB (not operational) - 2/57 Squadron, conversion to MiG-29 - 2/57 Squadron, MiG-23MF/23UB - 3/57 Squadron, MiG-21MF/21UM Turnisor AB (Sibiu) 58 Helicopter Regiment - 1/58 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316 - 2/58 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-330 Ghimbav Airfield/ICA Brasov (Brasov) 58 Helicopter Regiment (det.) - 1/58 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316 Tuzla AB 59 Helicopter Regiment - 1/59 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316, IAR-330 Titu AB (north-west of Bucharest, also known as Boteni) 61 Helicopter Regiment - 1/61 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316, IAR-330 Tecuci AB 60 Helicopter Regiment - 1/60 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316 Craiova AB 67 Fighter-Bomber Regiment - 1/67 Fighter-Bomber Squadron, IAR-93 - 2/67 Fighter-Bomber Squadron, IAR-93 Luna AB (Campia Turzii) 71 Fighter Regiment - 1/71 Squadron, MiG-21MF/UM - 2/71 Squadron, MiG-21M/UM Caransebes AB 73 Helicopter Regiment - 1/73 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316, IAR-330L Borcea AB (Fetesti) 86 Fighter Regiment - 1/86 Squadron, MiG-21 MF/UM - 2/86 Squadron, MiG-21 PFM/US - 38 Reconaissance Squadron, Harbin H-5B, HJ-5 Otopeni AB (Bucharest) 90 Transport Regiment An-2, 24, 26, 30 Deveselu AB 91 Fighter Regiment - 1/91 Squadron MiG-21 MF/UM - 2/91 Squadron MiG-21 PFM/US Alexeni AB (east of Bucharest) 94 Helicopter Regiment - 1/94 Helicopter Squadron, Mi-8T - 2/94 Helicopter Squadron, Mi-8T Giarmata AB (Timisoara) 93 Fighter Regiment - 1/93 Squadron, MiG-23 MF/UB - 2/93 Squadron, MiG-21 MF/UM - 31 Reconnaissance Squadron MiG-21R Bacau AB 95 Fighter Regiment - 1/95 Squadron MiG-21 PF/U - 2/95 Squadron MiG-21 PF/U Someseni airport (Cluj) - 132 Helicopter Squadron, IAR-316B In addition to aircraft, as of 1989, the Romanian air defences have had around 3.000 SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8 and SA-9 missiles. Most of SA-7s and SA-9s were operated by the army, as were some SA-6s and SA-8s, together with a large number of quadruple 14.5 mm machine guns (ZPU-4), and heavier 57 mm (S-60) and 85 mm anti-aircraft guns. 1st Missile Brigade, composed of nine battalions spread at a distance of 30 to 40 kilometres around Bucharest and 51 Missile Regiment, based at Craiova, fired SA-6" Some people have questioned the accuracy of this author's writings about other conflicts. I am not sure, I will leave the judgement of accuracy and the implications to others... I am more interested in the structure and equipment of the Romanian armed forces of the time! |
| Posted by: ANDREAS March 30, 2009 10:40 pm |
| Hallo again, First I wish to answer your question -trough the only Tank Regiment TO&E I am 100% sure about : the 1st Tank Regiment of the 1st Mechanised Infantry Division 'Tudor Vladimirescu-Debretin' had in 1982 95 tanks in 4 battalions - 3 T-55 based battalions and 1 T-72 battalion. In the regiment there were 64 T-55 tanks and 31 T-72 tanks. Info taken from Observatorul Militar the newspaper of the Romanian Ministry of Defence in 2000. So it's easy to estimate that a T-55 based battalion had 21 tanks and the T-72 based battalion 31 tanks. As I presume that not all tank regiment were so strong/or special as long as this regiment was the only one fitted with T-72 tanks/, I believe it exists also 64 type tank regiments together with 94 type tank regiments /I mean with 64 or 94 tanks per regiment/. So the total number could fit. I also read that every Mechanised Infantry Regiment had 1 SU-76 battery, but still the number doesn't fit. Can you tell more about SU-76 deployment? And also that in the romanian army only two of the three infantry battalions were mechanised -TAB-71/-77/-79 based, so no more than 65-70 apc's per regiment in place of over 100 in soviet MRR. The third battalion was infantry on trucks. Do you know anything about that? And also about recce company of the MRR or TkR. I heard that in the MRR the recce comp had 7 BRDM or TABC and in the TkR only 3 BRDM. Any idea? Thanks again and waiting your reply. |
| Posted by: chico20854 March 31, 2009 12:01 am |
| I'm sorry, I was hoping you had more details on TO&Es. I have something coming in the mail that may help, I will let you know when I get it! It makes sense, having 2 battalions in APCs and 1 in trucks. I guess that maybe the tank regiments you show that have SU-100s, if they are not in the AT Regiments, may be 64-tank regiments with SU-100s to fill them out? What I've been able to find with SU-76: "A few were captured 1942-1944. In 1949 more were purchased officially from the USSR. In 1966 upgraded to Romanian SR-114M Truck motors. 1992 out of service." I will keep looking! But mostly I have falling back to Soviet models, which is wrong as much as it is right! |
| Posted by: horia March 31, 2009 10:28 am | ||
IAR-99? |
| Posted by: Radub March 31, 2009 11:54 am | ||
I think that between 1988 (when the first IAR99 was put into operational use) and 1990 when Communism "officially" ended, the total inventory was 18 IAR99s. Radu |
| Posted by: cainele_franctiror April 01, 2009 01:27 pm |
| Also, Romania had more Missile Ground to Air Regiments and two Radiolocation Brigades. |
| Posted by: Soim April 01, 2009 02:34 pm |
| Tell us more about ground to air units!!!!!! |
| Posted by: cainele_franctiror April 01, 2009 05:42 pm | ||
My book with general Mircea Mocanu, Comander in Chief of the Romanian Air Defense (Comandamentul Apararii Antiaeriene a Teritoriului - CAAT) in 1975-1990 is ready, but yesterday, Mr. Mocanu said he has more to say. A very nice surprise, so I hope, anyway, it will be ready in mai. There are many, many things new about ground to air units, radiolocation units etc. And, I just started two weeks ago another book with another general, former commander of the Romanian Air Force. |
| Posted by: Dénes April 01, 2009 06:57 pm |
| Are these interview-books supported by documentary evidences? Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 01, 2009 11:12 pm |
| Hallo everybody, As I found a big interest in aircraft and air-defence, I can post this: The Air Defence of the Territory Command - 16th Air Defence Division "Siret" -Ploiesti - -46th Radiolocation Brigade -Ploiesti, -1st AA Rocket Brigade -Bucharest -18th and 19th SAM Regiments -48th Mobile SAM Regiment -Chitila -1st AA Gun Regiment -Bucharest -2nd Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Ploiesti -4th SAM Regiment -Ploiesti -11th SAM Regiment -Brasov -2 AA Gun Regiments - could be part of the AA Artillery Brigade Ploiesti ?? -6th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Ramnicu Sarat -?? 63 and ?? 65 AA Gun Regiments -13th ?? SAM Regiment -Bacau -52nd Mobile SAM Regiment -Braila -53rd SAM Regiment -Medgidia -14th Mixt AA Artillery Regiment -Fetesti -Cernavoda -137th AA Gun Regiment -Tuzla 34th Air Defence Division "Mures" -Timisoara - -41th Radiolocation Brigade -Cluj Napoca, -3rd ?? AA Rocket Brigade -Timisoara -16th and 17th SAM Regiments -4th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Targu Jiu -40 ?? and 373 ?? AA Gun Regiments -12th SAM Regiment -?? -51th Mobile SAM Regiment -Craiova -5th Mixt AA Artillery Brigade -Cluj Napoca -?? 146 and ?? 149 AA Gun Regiments -15th ?? SAM Regiment -Medias -50th Mobile SAM Regiment -Cluj Napoca |
| Posted by: MMM April 10, 2009 09:36 am |
| But what was the period? Because one can see the fact that AA-Defense should have been placed on the more "threatened" borders; whereas we, being surrounded only by "friendly socialist states", shuoldn't have reinforced a particular part of the territory - maybe the one with Yugoslavia... |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 13, 2009 11:16 am | ||
Panzerking, mabadesc and others! About any serious threat let us look at some numbers and facts. In 1990 Bulgaria and Hungary had respectively: totals 2240 1720 ArmouredPersonelcarriers 3960 2145 1345 Combat tanks 3490 1047 2116 artillery pieces 3163 243 110 combat aircraft 353 While Romania had 3102 APC 2851 tanks 3789 artillery and 505 combat aircraft. So Bulgaria and Hungary together had roughly 850 APC more, and 640 tanks while Romania outnumbered in guns and close air support aircraft about 625 and 150! Only Bulgaria and Hungaries 83 Mi24 combat helikopters differed from the IAR316s in fire power and air assault capabilities. So though these numbers do not reflect real power or deployability or maintenance it would be a laugh to take any real threat of either Bulgaria or Hungary in 1990 to attack its neighbour, as some tactics preveal an outnumbering of three to one for the attacking party!? Still I think these numbers speak out for themselves. Who does still think a real threat was existing in 1990? Except from Soviet forces of course who had the power, but not the political will, it was rather unlikely for Gorbachov to deploy his forces inside non (SSSR) Union- members at that time openly, apart from in Lithuania, Moldavia, Baku, Georgia and so further, at that time. Who held different opinion, I am interested in his arguments! Facts are that Bulgarian leader Todor Zhivkov had proposed january 27, 1989 to the state council and council of ministers to rduce the 1989 budget by 12%, the army by 10,000 men by end of 1990. armament reductions of 200 tanks, 200 artillery systems, 20 combat aircraft and 5 naval units. (source radio Sofia) While Hungary was more worried about the large force (60.000) of soviet forces (Southern Group) inside its borders, and called for its withdrawal in january 1990! Those numbers were not (anymore) in Bulgaria or Romania fortunately! About paranoia we should not underestimate it, it reflects interesting thoughts and wareness among the people at times about their society and situation. Of course these numbers where not out on the streets those days, but as all three parties provided them freely at will in 1990, as agreed in 1989. Jeroen |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 13, 2009 11:51 am | ||||
In fact they had about 4 IAR99 operating than along factory aircraft In summer 1990 as a foreigner I was totally surprised to see some IAR99 at Craiova including the protype S-001 while flying domestically with Tarom An24! The Soim was not yet internationally known at that time in the west. prototype S-001 was presented to Romanian public june 23 at Bacau. It made is last flight from Craiova june 25 but I did not know that then. Also I will never forget taxing out to the west end of the runway 09, when the An24 was put on hold because of an aproaching aircraft. While looking through a passenger window I was expecting some IAR93 or Mig21(UM), but was totaly surprised when a beatifull MiG-15UTI was perfoming a touch and go! Craiova at least in 1991 they flew some MiG21(UM) also with 67th Regt! As I saw myself. Probably replacing the Mig15UTIs? I found my old spotterlogs, it might be of interest to some forummembers Remember the good old days Afternoon thirsday 23 june 1991! 13.00local time landing some unknown MiG21UM, then landing an IAR93 13.42L practise approach MiG-21UM 172 13.52L landing MiG-21UM 172 13.54L landing IAR93DC 006 than times not known landings different IAR93(DC),IAR99: 225,702,706,707,109,181,119,227, 007(DC),223 14.31L aerobatics MIG-21UM 176 (training for Baneasa on sunday) 15.34L approach IAR93DC 006 15.54L landing IAR93DC 006 (706 had a landing accident on sunday at Baneasa) Tuesday 25 june afternoon after13.35L landing IAR93DC 007 landings IAR93 181,109,118,119,227,229 landings MiG21M 804,805 landings MiG-1UM 176,6905 Does any forummember visit aviation day or families days at baza in those days and also has logs or pics from that time? Maybe you could share it with us. Can some one produce a better list or orbat for Aviatia Militare 1985-1989 and 1990-1995 when CFE came into force??? Jeroen |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 14, 2009 09:06 pm |
| Hallo Jeroen, My opinion regarding the numbers of tanks, apc/ifv, artillery pieces and aircraft is that in reality it means not much! For a war, speaking about that, this numbers doesn't matter in comparison with the combat-readiness of the units, their training and command, the communications and their weapon status! And certainly some other factors which I don't mention anymore! It's not the place to serious analyse all that and not even the romanian army weapons but I wish to give just few exemples : -our amy had in 1990 only 127 (maybe less??) ifv-type of vehicles, speaking about MLI-84, but the hungarians over 500 BMP-1/M/P combat infantry machines, -our army had no more than 6 SP howitzers soviet-produced 2S1 122mm., and since 1991 no romanian-made Obuzierul autopropulsat model 1989, a copy of the soviet 2S1; hungary had 152 self-propelled howitzers 2S1 122mm. and 12 s.p. howitzers 2S3 152mm. (info from newspaper Armata Romaniei -june 1992 -taking about the hungarian army in 1991). -our amy had only 30 tanks T-72 (one tank battalion) and the hungarian army 139 tanks T-72/A/M (three tank battalions and a reserve) The exemples can continue... But that doesn't mean, for no reason, that somebody in Hungary (thinking about 1989-1993 period), I mean a normal reasoning person, could imagine a war with Romania, or that a general, superior officer or anybody from the hungarian army think about something like that! Alone, without the soviet army -no, no way! Maybe some nationalist or extremists could think about that in december 1989, but the army at least (and a bulk of the society) could never take a serious step in this direction! But, for game reasons only, the romanian army could not be seen as superiour to the hungarian one! |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 15, 2009 07:14 am |
| Indeed Andreas We have to take quality of weapon systems, logiistic, level of traing etcetera also to consider of importance for such analysis. Not to forget geographic situation, Roumania has more mountains than Hungary. As Slovenian territorial forces with handheld antitank weapons against JRA armoured colums in accidented terrain made all to clear. JRA was already inside, did not need to invade, only to proceed to borders to held some terrain, it could not do that. Jeroen |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 15, 2009 03:17 pm | ||||
Gratulations with all these fine initiatives Cainile franctiror! Did you publish more books in the past before? What Editura and isbn and titles? What will be the titles of your two new books? I am waiting for them, hope to read one in may! Greetings Jeroen |
| Posted by: MMM April 16, 2009 02:31 pm | ||
What IS JRA, then? I found no refference to that... |
| Posted by: Dénes April 16, 2009 02:50 pm |
| It's the Yugoslav army. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 16, 2009 03:44 pm |
| Indeed Maybe better was Jugoslavenska Narodna Armija (JNA), or Jugoslavenska Vojska or Vojska Jugoslavije, but as this forum language of choice is English I prefer Jugoslavian (Republic) Army. By the way what MMM stands for? Jeroen |
| Posted by: ANDREAS April 16, 2009 10:48 pm |
| Hallo Jeroen, I agree that the geographic situation is very, very important, and in case of a conflict Roumania has a big advantage from this. But the exemple you gave with Slovenia is not the best we can find -actually the JNA intended to frighten the Slovenes like they did in Kosovo in 1981 or 1989 not to fight them, and they were surprised by the serious reaction of the paramilitary units from there. And they were told -speaking about JNA troops that the austrian troops crossed the border and they need to secure it! This I read in the newspaper Armata Romaniei from july 1991 in a interwiew with the jugoslav military attache in Bucharest! And actually the JNA had a reserve plan to serious fight the Slovenes and annihilate them in a big scale operation but the events in Croatia stopped them! The better exemple is Croatia I think, were JNA armour suffer big loss in men and equipment in face of croatian lightly-equipped troops! |
| Posted by: MMM April 17, 2009 06:50 am |
| Well, nothing else than my own name: Mihai Modrea-Marin. One can also see that at the "Present yourself" section of the forum: http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=791&st=45 You might want to give it a try, as well |
| Posted by: Jeroen April 18, 2009 08:43 pm | ||
Nobody who logged aircraft in past, or can improve the orbat? Jeroen |
| Posted by: Jeroen May 04, 2009 10:17 am | ||
Denes When did these flights commence first, to what airports, type of aircraft and loads? What small arms did the Rumanian army need additionally in late december 1989? thanks Jeroen |
| Posted by: Dénes May 04, 2009 11:28 am |
| Hello Jeroen, I am sorry, I cannot provide any further details, as what I wrote is based on my memory (amazingly, almost 20 years passed by since!). Perhaps by checking the 'net you will find more info. If you do, please let us know. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: ANDREAS May 04, 2009 09:19 pm |
| Hello Jeroen, I'll try to come soon with a TOE for Romanian Air Force in 1991 including aircraft tipes and numbers on every base. And regarding the help offer form Hungarian Army in the days of our Revolution, I can surely say that not single arms or ammo delivery trough air, ground or sea was happened in that period. By the way the phone given by general Gusa, romanian chieff of staff in 23.12.1989 to gen. Karpathy clearified the issue, and no further offer come from hungarian side. On the other hand it's true that medicines, food and clothes come to Romania from Hungary as aid for the romanian population and also assistance personnel. But no, no such thing as weapons and ammunitions for the romanian army. This is only legend! |
| Posted by: redcooper May 09, 2009 01:20 am | ||
This statement is based on what? |
| Posted by: Jeroen May 09, 2009 03:04 pm | ||
Thanks Denes and Andreas for clearing things up! I am really interested in that TOE from 1989 or 1991. About legends and reality. I was involved in one action to deliver goods and info to the romanian people by ground or air in december 1989! But de date of our action was 15th and 16th december, the very exact weekend Tokes was ordered to leave or to be displaced and the revolt started in Timisoara! At that time I was a student and enthousiatically involved and interested in democratization in Eastern European countries, thrilled by all developing events like in Leipzig, Berlin, Praha. In autumn 1989 in Budapest we made contacts with Hungarian students to unite our efforts. So it was decided to organize some political action in Transsylvania just before Christmas to show our solidarity with the Romanian people. It was planned to send as many as 20 Dutch and 20 Hungarian students guised as young tourists our backs filled with all sort of economical and consumption goods Romanian people was short of, and politically neutral Christmas wishes on cards in both Romanian and Hungarian language by train from Budapest to Cluj into Transsylvania. There we were supposed to disperse and meet with the Romanian people. Also we had many cameras and video equipement with us to document our action and Romanian life for Dutch television news programs(Journaal, AVRO televizier) and others. Well that were some parts of our plan. We did not know if the Romanian borderguards would let us in at all. So we had a back up plan. In case we were denied access we had gas canisters and lots of ballons to be filled with gas and the Christmas wishes cards to be send by air and prevailing westwind into Romanian airspace to be picked up by farmers from their fields...! We idealist young students. Well of course this was not kept all that secret so the Hungarian authorities knew we were going. In Budapest we were informed by Hungarian authorities that they had forbidden all Hungarian students to become involved afraid of some international incident. Moreover the Hungarians told us that Romanian knew we were coming at that Securitate spies were already in budapest to keep eyes on us! in fact they were to travel with us in the same train. Also a Hungarian military officer, claimed to be some general advised us not to let up any ballons from Hungarian soil near the Romanian border (at Biharkeresztes). In case we would he was obliged to order hungarian air defense or borderguards to open up fire at our balloons to prevent them illegaly passing the border and enterring Romanian airspace. We discussed what to do... Any way we had not to decide as the Romanian let us in. So sunday 16th not knowing what was happening a few 100 km south in Banat we started our action at three different locations. Our group escaped Romanian securitate or police when locals warned they were coming. Six others of us were arrested and released after searching and an official warning that we had to act as tourists else....... The rest is history............. When we returned in Budapest with the last train before the international borders with Hungary were closed, Romanian forces had opened fire upon demonstrants and the people... I still have some AK47 7.62 cases I later (1990) found at the roof of the Opera building in Timissoara that some guys fired from there aiming at.... who knows? Four with red/copper percussion cap and number 85 on the base three with yellow/copper percussion cap with number 21 and opposite number 92. Can some Romanian ammunition specialist tell me which batche, when and where these cases were produced and which units may have used them? Later the successor of Securitate (SRI) claimed in a report in july 1994 that since december 9th 25.000 or 35.000 foreign agents had enterred Romania to provoke a revolution. Most had come from Moldova others from Hungary. In a earlier report SRI claimed the uprise in Timisoara was (partly) provoked by Hungary. I wonder if they counted us Dutch also!? Happy Christmas to you all! Yes already 20 years ago, European life has chanced since that autumn! Jeroen P.S. And I still want the Romanian borderguards to return all our films and videotapes they took from us then. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS May 10, 2009 01:10 pm |
| Hallo Jeroen, The story you just told is very interesting indeed and tells a lot about the real situation in late 1989. And a possible answer to your question about the Dutch group is positive, it is very possible that they are counted as provocateurs in connection with hostile western or hungarian secret services. As promissed I will soon come with the Air Force TOE by 1991 but since it is now only 60% complete it will take more time... I was told by a buddy from Bacau he will soon have a detailed TOE for 1991 of the Aviation Division from Ploiesti so... I must wait... I have some new details about the Romanian Air Force TOE around 1955...check it out... Best regards. |
| Posted by: Dénes May 10, 2009 04:08 pm | ||
Where can we check that TOE out? Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: ANDREAS May 11, 2009 10:42 pm |
| Hallo Denes, I add new info on the topic opened before by Jeroen called Diviziei AVT. |
| Posted by: Agarici May 13, 2009 08:35 am |
| I don't know if you've already seen this link: http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=119&Itemid=47 It’s a well written and documented article (given the context it describers), and it includes some data you might find useful. Also, the material is being constantly updated. |
| Posted by: Agarici May 13, 2009 06:31 pm |
| OFF-TOPIC: on the same site, an interesting account of the Transdnestrian conflict in Rep. Moldova, 1992: http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=152&Itemid=47 |
| Posted by: Jeroen May 13, 2009 07:42 pm |
| Thanks Agarici! Adding to that article I want to express my doubts 14th Armiya had actualy some staff independent heli detachement (OVO) with 4 Mi4 Hound piston-engined(?) helikopters. I guess they were mistaken and must be Mi-2 or otherwise Mi8. Mi4 were flown from Chinese production in Albania ( until 2004), but nowhere else in Europe in 1991, Soviets withdrew them in 70-ies, possibly Mi4PP jammers being the last version to be replaced by Mi8. Where were these Mi24RKhR/K based? Furthermore the Moldovan AF is said to have its homebase at Chisinau. In fact GE picture (dated?) from Marculesti aviabaze gives at least 4 wilga including one camouflaged (in stead of one), one An24, 6 stored Mig29, and 2 Mi8/17 and two An2 outside with possible more a/c inside the maintenance hangar. At Chisinau among others one Wilga and 26 (stored) ka26, etcetera. |
| Posted by: Jeroen May 20, 2009 12:12 pm | ||||
It seems that Rumania preceeded first to jump to "help" its neighbour! Already in 1956! came across a passage in Pacepa`s Red Horizons. Page 259 of my Dutch 1990 copy, my translation According Pacepa Gheorghiu-Dej told him he was informed by Ceausescu that Rumania had secretly started delivering arms and intelligence to Hungarian sercurity forces at certain border areas for self defence....???? Also Ceausescu, in political command for actions in Hungary, did send a few hunderd tourists, Hungarian etnic securitatea agents into Hungary. In 1956 Is there any independent proof of these remarks? Jeroen |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 14, 2009 08:36 pm |
| Let's build together a regular mechanised division and a reserve motorised division on the information given us by Colonel in Reserve Grigore Bartoş, ex-commander of the 11th Mechanised Division from Oradea on a battalion-regiment level: "some data about the ex-11th Mechanised Division and about 89th (Reserve) Motorised Infantry Division which would be raised after mobilization in Bihor and Arad districts. I was the former chief of staff of the 89th (Reserve) Motorised Infantry Division ... the total force of these two divisions totaled over 50.000 soldiers and were made of : • două comandamente de divizie; • trei regimente mecanizate (3 batalioane pe T.A.B. sau M.L.I., un batalion de tancuri, un divizion de artilerie, 1 baterie de autotunuri, o baterie de rachete antitanc, o baterie de tunuri antitanc, o baterie de mitraliere şi rachete antiaeriene, o companie cercetare, o companie de transmisiuni, o companie de geniu, o companie stat major, o companie logistică şi alte subunităţi); o trei regimente de infanterie moto (nu erau dotate cu blindate), organizarea identică cu a unui regiment mecanizat); o un regiment de tancuri; o un batalion de tancuri; o două regimente de artilerie x 3 divizioane; o două divizioane de artilerie antitanc; o două batalioane de cercetare; o două batalioane de geniu; o două batalioane de transmisiuni; o un divizion de rachete tactice; o două divizioane de artilerie antiaeriană; o două batalioane logistice; o două spitale de linia I; o alte subunităţi speciale. Cele două divizii însumau, ca principale guri de foc: trei baterii (instalaţii) de lansare a rachetelor tactice care puteau întrebuinţa muniţie nucleară sau chimică; 48 de instalaţii de lansare a proiectilelor reactive, provenite din modernizarea „KATIUŞA” puteau folosi muniţie clasică şi chimică; 24 instalaţii cu 40 tuburi lansatoare fiecare şi 24 de instalaţii cu 24 tuburi lansatoare; 36 obuziere calibru 152 mm; 36 obuziere „SKODA” calibru 100 mm; 108 tunuri calibru 76 mm, 36 tunuri antitanc calibru 100 mm; 18 tunuri antitanc calibru 75 mm; 108 aruncătoare de bombe (mine) calibru 120 mm; 324 aruncătoare de bombe calibru 82 mm; 148 de tancuri din care 127 erau TR-77-580 (tun calibru 100 mm) şi 21 erau T-34-85 de fabricaţie sovietică; 162 tunuri antitanc fără recul (AG-9); 36 autotunuri; 36 instalaţii de lansare a rachetelor antitanc dirijate, instalate pe autovehicole blindate şi autoturisme de teren; 162 instalaţii de lansare a rachetelor antitanc portative generaţia II (semidirijate automat); 12 tunuri antiaeriene de 57 mm; 30 tunuri antiaeriene de calibru mic; 6 instalaţii de rachete A.A.; 120 de mitraliere antiaeriene cu 2 şi 4 ţevi calibru 14,5mm; 316 TAB-uri; 30 TABC." So sorry, couldn't translate all of it... Waiting your help in organise all this information on regiments, battalions and companies if it's possible... |
| Posted by: Jeroen December 14, 2009 09:22 pm |
| Nice done Andreas keep on the good work! What about a survey of units and orbat as it was december 1989? I heared in 1990 from air force personel the a helikopter unit in Transsylvania (at Caransebes, IAR316/330?) was alarmed and armed (with rockets and machine gun ammo) to assist in supressing the people in Timisoara, possibly this did not happen because certain airforce officers influenced others not to do so, has anyone heared about it? What happened in Oradea anyway in 1989, how many were killed? Jeroen |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 15, 2009 06:58 pm |
| In 1989 in Oradea was killed by friendly fire only one sentry, at the Oradea airport. About the OOB of 11th Division's units from Oradea i have a book named Stare de veghe, with the history and OOB of the unit from begining to late 1990's. Maybe if I'll have time I'll search it and post here info if you guys want it. I was volunteer for military service back in year 2000 for compulsory military service and I was sent to 21st Traian Mosoiu motomechanised infantry batalion from Oradea, wich used to belong to 11th mechanised Division Carei. Today, 21st Traian Mosoiu batalion is disbanded, for good. Col. Bartos was comander of my batalion before I went to the army, when the batalion was actually a regiment. I met him a couple of years ago, personally and have a small chat. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 15, 2009 08:55 pm |
| Hallo 21 inf, I am for sure interested about the OOB of the Oradea unit from the book Stare de veghe, and if you can post it please! Thank you! Hallo Jeroen and thank you, About the information regarding hellicopter unit from Caransebes prepared to attack Timisoara, I heard that a hellicopter unit from Brasov (no idea why such a far situated unit ?) was prepared for such a mission... but I can't remember why the mission was delayed. I read about it in a newspaper, about Ceausescu's plan to brake the Timisoara rebellion, including the patriotic guards from Oltenia and other plans like that. Back to my undertaking I can for sure rebuild the tank units of the 11th Division, from the basic battalion-size unit of 21 tanks. That means the tank regiment of the division had 64 tanks (3 battalions of 21 tanks + commanders tank) and each of the 3 mechanised regiments had a tank battalion of 21 tanks, so the total tank inventory of the 11th Division was 127 tanks all TR-77-580 type. Exactly how Col. Rez. Bartos write. But no idea of the TAB basic size unit battalion, nor regiment, so if anybody had a idea please post it! |
| Posted by: dead-cat December 16, 2009 09:38 pm | ||
a few trainloads arrived, but they were "taken over" at the rail station and quickly joined the rebellion. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 17, 2009 12:39 am |
| To be more accurate dead-cat, I believe that the patriotic guards members from Oltenia take no action against the rebelled population from Timisoara, and soon turn back to the railway station and left the city. Not exactly 'joined the rebellion'! But the idea is correct. On the other hand I don't know how could the attack mission (for the aircraft or hellicopters) over Timisoara be explained and what would be targeted? Can't even imagine if such a mission would be accomplished, what would be the fate of the Army High Command? Would Romania be invaded by Warszaw Treaty armies? Just wondering... |
| Posted by: dead-cat December 17, 2009 12:00 pm | ||
my neighbour was among those who awaited the first train at the rail station. he said they joined. don't know about the other trains though. |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 17, 2009 05:14 pm |
| 11th Infantry Division on post-ww2 period The 11th Infantry Division was formed on 2nd of August 1951 by order 00317736 of Marele Stat Major. For the begining was raised 3rd Infantry (small) Regiment (Regimentul 3 Infanterie redus), in september 1951. The OOB was: -the command of 3rd IR, with -1 mixed transmision platoon -1 pioneer platoon - the rear of the regiment -1st Rifle Batalion (small) -1 artilery batery including: 1 AT 57mm platoon, 1 76 mm canons platoon, 1 120 mm mortar platoon. In 15 october 1951 3rd IR (practicaly the 11th Division) garisoned in Oradea. In January 1954 the OOB of the regiment was as following: -the command of 3rd IR, with -headquarter (statul major) -political oficers (aparatul politic) -weapons and services chiefs (sefi arme si servicii) -1 recon platoon -1 chemical platoon -1 pioneer platoon -1 AA machinegun platoon -1 transmisions company -1 Rifle NCO Batalion (Batalion puscasi cadre) -1 Rifle Batalion with the following OOB: 2 Rifle companies, 1 NCO company (companie cadre), 1 machinegun company, 1 mortars company -regimental artilery with 1 artilery batalion -rear of the regiment (spatele regimentului) -NCO school (scoala de sergenti). Total number of men was: 120 oficers, 50 contract NCO (sergenti reangajati), 182 sergeants, 798 soldiers, 16 civil employees, 27 cavalry horses, 32 artilery horses and 54 column horses (cai coloana). In 1957 the regiment received "mechanised" denomination. In 1959 the name of the regiment is changed, becoming now 21 Mechanised Regiment. In January 1960 OOB was made from 149 oficers, 26 NCO, 168 sergeants, 739 soldiers and 15 civil employees. In november 1964 the regiment had 24 T34 tanks, 12 self-propelled guns SU76, 1 BTR-40, 1 BTR-152, 1 50PU car, 3 soft-skinned cars, 162 trucks, 20 special trucks (autospeciale), 1 M72 motorcycle. |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 17, 2009 05:32 pm |
| Organisation of the regiment in 1965: Regiment Command I. Second Commander (loctiitor comandant) Headquarter (stat major) Party comitee (Comitet de partid) Services Chiefs (Sefi servicii) Technical Service Financiar Service Rear of the Regiment II.Subunits for battle security (subunitati de asigurare de lupta) -1 recon company -1 transmisions company -1 pioneer company -1 chemical recon and radiations platoon III.Fighting units -3 infantry batalions One motorised infantry batalion consisted of: - comand - headquarter - 1 transmision platoon - infantry companies - 1 AT 57 mm guns platoon - 1 82 mm mortars platoon - 1 platoon autotransports (pluton transport auto) - 1 suply platoon - 1 medical station - 1 mechanical repair workshop The tank batalion had: - headquarter - 1 transmisions platoon - tank companies - self-suply team (grupa de gospodarie) - 1 workshop for tank repairs The regimental artilery had: - chief of artilery - chief of artilery suply (seful inzestrarii artileristice) - comand team (grupa comanda) - 1 120 mm mortar batery - 1 self-propelled 76 mm guns batery - 1 AA 2.U-2 machineguns platoon Rear units: -regimental club -aid station -artilery workshop -custode poligon -workshop for tank and auto repair -technical checkpoint -motorised transport company -material warehouses -"stoc" material warehouses Total numbers of men: 160 oficers, 76 NCO's, 252 "gradati", 1079 soldiers, 35 civil employees. |
| Posted by: 21 inf December 17, 2009 05:39 pm |
| In 1992 the regiment had: -21 TR580 tanks - 72 TAB71 - 11 TABC79 - 12 self-propelled guns SU76 - 18 TAB71 Ar - 1 TAB71 A - 3 TAB77 A - 23 MLI84 - 3 TABC Ch79 - 3 T.E.R.A. - 27 120 mm mortars model 38-43 - 12 120 mm mortars model 82. In 1st July 1994, based on Ordinul General nr. 3 from 24 January 1994 of MApN ministry, the 21st Mecanised Regiment is disbanded, being continued by 21st Infantry Batalion "General Traian Mosoiu". |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 17, 2009 10:59 pm |
| Thank you 21 inf, Wonderful work you done! I found many interesting things from the unit history including the fact that in the '60s the 'mechanised' term was nothing more than a joke! I mean before the large production of the TAB vehicles after '70 who filled the mechanised regiments and divisions with armored personnel carriers instead of trucks! And also that in 1992 the regiment had some MLI vehicles, fact that I didn't know. The MLI produced in relative small numbers (found on the site of Ministerul Apararii Nationale -less then 180 vehicles produced until 1994) was not a common vehicle to be found in a mechanised regiment! Ok, thanks again 21 inf and please post anything helpful, if you can! |
| Posted by: Agarici December 20, 2009 08:46 am |
| You might find this source useful (the armed forces section): http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=5332 |
| Posted by: piero1971 August 30, 2010 07:17 am |
| Buna Dia! hey, I am researching Romanian OOB and TOE for the late 1980's and there are some great threads here. however, I am not able to find the OOB and TOE for the combat/military units of the Securitate. I have no idea of the size of that force? likewise, in another thread ont he patriotic guard, there is no mention of an OOB, if ever there was a precise one! let me know!!! mulzu melsc |
| Posted by: Jeroen August 30, 2010 09:17 am |
| Well ciphers to share at least. One source states by 22 december 1989 poltical police of Securitate had 13,275 officers and 984 civilians. Others say thes were 8,159 officiers and 5,105 warrant and NCO, 984 civvies. A 2004 source counts 15,312 791 maistri militari 3179 subofficers 1228 civilians A number of 2426 served with special units. all data via CWIHP. I remember spotting at Banease airfield northside in 1990 about 5/6 Mi8-Mi/17 and some Alouettes all believed to be operated by MinisterInterior forces i.e. Securitatae. |
| Posted by: piero1971 September 02, 2010 09:32 pm | ||
interesting. I presume a majority of these officers and warrant officers etc. would be for "police" duties and surveillance of the population. I am curious about the "special units" you mention here. would these be anti-insurrection combat units? or anti-riot police-type? do you know if there was spcial equipment for these? i.e. TAB-71's etc.? I am often in Bucharest, perhaps you know a library that has good info on this? I can read Romanian (slowly)... in the meantime I found this: "According to the Decree 130/1972 at 9th of April 1972 the Council of State Security (the coordinating political entity of D.S.S.) has been re-integrated into the Ministry of the Interior (previously became separate as of 1968-04-04) and the D.S.S. (Securitate) has been organised in 6 (six) Directorates (noted with Roman digits - to be precise), as follows: DIRECTORATE I - Internal Informations; DIRECTORATE II - Economic counter-informations; DIRECTORATE III - Counter-espionage; DIRECTORATE IV - Military counter-informations; DIRECTORATE V - Security and Guard Service DIRECTORATE VI - Criminalistic/Penal The Security Troops were not specifically a directorate, but organised as military units (Romanian abbrv. - UM). A particular unit was UM-0640, located in northern Bucharest's suburb of Baneasa, better known as U.S.L.A. (Rom. abbrv. approx. for Unit Specialised in Counter Terrorist Warfare). This unit was charged with counter terrorist activities in the main airports (Otopeni and Baneasa in Bucharest), as well as protection for Embassies and foreign diplomats in Bucharest. In the text, the number given for security troops is a guess at best - the exact numbers are of course highly classified info and are not supposed to be available to the public, even today" clearly it's in Directorate V that security troops would be part of. |
| Posted by: MMM September 03, 2010 02:25 pm | ||
What is the difference?!?! |
| Posted by: piero1971 September 03, 2010 07:57 pm | ||||
there would be some overlap, but, say, anti-insurrecton would be units able to operate against armed people (using rifles, etc. - guerilla type) anti-riot use non-lethal weapons against civilian protestants (also unarmed, usually - or with molotovs, stones, etc.) I am sure Securitate had units specialized for both cases, but which ones? |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 19, 2010 02:25 pm |
| New information about artillery units of the romanian army in 1989. Source : 165 ani de existenta a artileriei romane moderne /Bucuresti 2008, Colectiv de autori, coordonator al lucrarii Col. dr. Adrian Stroea, Referent stiintific prof. univ. dr. Teodor Frunzeti (can be downloaded from this forum) So in 1989 the artillery units of the romanian army were: -1st Army: ---1st Mechanised Division : 16th Artillery Regiment Mihai Bravu, 113 Missile Battalion Ploiesti, ---57th Tank Division : 43th Artillery Regiment Mihai Bravu, ---2nd Mountain Brigade : 206th Mountain Artillery Battalion Halchiu -direct army subordination : 29th Antitank Artillery Regiment Alexandria -2nd Army: ---9th Mechanised Division : 13th Artillery Regiment Medgidia, 203 Missile Battalion Murfatlar, ---10th Mechanised Division : 3rd Artillery Regiment Bacau, ---67th Mechanised Division : 285th Artillery Regiment Braila, ?? Missile Battalion Braila -direct army subordination : 32nd Operative Tactical Missile Brigade Tecuci, 25th Artillery Regiment Braila, 79th Antitank Artillery Regiment Braila -3rd Army: ---2nd Mechanised Division : 9th Artillery Regiment Drobeta Turnu Severin, 180th Missile Battalion Craiova, ---18th Mechanised Division : 39th Artillery Regiment Timisoara, 207th Missile Battalion Lugoj, ---4th Mountain Brigade : 41st Mountain Artillery Battalion Ramnicu Valcea -direct army subordination : 1st Artillery Regiment Slatina, 59th Artillery Regiment Lugoj, 24th Antitank Artillery Regiment Lugoj, -4th Army: ---11th Mechanised Division : 26th Artillery Regiment Ineu, 151st Missile Battalion Oradea, ---81st Mechanised Division : 315th Artillery Regiment Simleu Silvaniei, ---6th Tank Division : 7th Artillery Regiment Floresti, ---1st Mountain Brigade : ??th Mountain Artillery Battalion Prundu Bargaului, ---5th Mountain Brigade : 86th Mountain Artillery Battalion Abrud, -direct army subordination : 37th Operative Tactical Missile Brigade Ineu, 69th Artillery Regiment Simleu Silvaniei, 612th Antitank Artillery Regiment Baia Mare, Artillery Command /Strategical Romanian Army Reserve ---17th Braketrough Artillery Brigade Tecuci ---8th Gun Artillery Brigade Focsani ---65th Antitank Artillery Regiment Braila, ---42th Antitank Artillery Battalion Sighisoara ---62nd and 95th Technical Missile Bases a.o. |
| Posted by: osutacincizecisidoi January 15, 2011 05:01 pm | ||
Are not the Mobile SAM Regiments organic to the mechanized divisions? After all that was the standard WP practice . |
| Posted by: ANDREAS January 31, 2011 08:05 pm |
| Hallo osutacincizecisidoi, According to the informations taken from the Romanian military media, the 50th AntiAircraft Missile Regiment "Andrei Mureseanu" unit established on June 30, 1989 in the Cluj city area, equipped, according to the standards of the Warsaw Pact at that time with 9K33M3 "OSA-AKM" surface-to-air missile systems. This regiment was directly subordinated to the 4th Army Command in Cluj. I can't say with certainty whether the other 3 AA Mobile Missile Regiments (all with 2K12 Kub mobile systems) were or were not subordinated to the other 3 Army Commands (Buzau, Bucuresti and Craiova) but is likely to be so. |
| Posted by: BALLY May 15, 2011 03:22 pm |
| I saw two artillery pieces at Izvorul Nou Park's entrance in Bucharest. I think Zis-2 57 mm AT guns. Were those guns in Romanian Army's post World War 2 inventory? |
| Posted by: Mircea87 May 15, 2011 09:14 pm | ||
Yes, each artillery battalion from all infantry regiments had 18 pieces. They were quite common. Nowadays, they are frequently used as "gate guards". You can find out more about the Romanian Cold War artillery here: http://www.rft.forter.ro/17_bibvirt/pdf/004-artileria-romana-in-date-si-imagini.pdf (in Romanian, but the pics and titles are quite eloquent.) |
| Posted by: BALLY May 16, 2011 04:54 pm |
| Many thanks!! |
| Posted by: mabadesc May 18, 2011 04:07 pm |
| This is more of a post-Cold War question but this is the closest thread I could find. There is a miltary/coastal base north of Navodari, next to Corbu. You can see it easily on Google Earth. Does anyone know what regiment or battalion occupied that base? I am using the past tense because I think it is now deactivated (dezafectata). Or perhaps I'm wrong? Is it still active? If, so, by which unit? It looks pretty cool on Google Earth, you can see the gun/rocket emplacements, berms, etc... Thanks in advance... |
| Posted by: Vici May 24, 2011 10:34 am |
| That place hosted a battery of 8 guns KS-30, 130mm used as coastal guns since 1965. There are another two very similar installations - one at Capu Midia, just west of the oil refinery tank farm and another south of 2 Mai, on the brink of the sea and eroding fast. Don't know which unit operated them, but KS-30 were retired from use in the early 90's and the unit operating them disbanded. |
| Posted by: Mircea87 May 24, 2011 12:00 pm | ||
I think you're talking about this facility, right? http://www.roaf.ro/en/unitati/capu_midia_en.php It's still active, it actually fools a lot of tourists during the summer in thinking there is a thunderstorm coming. ) |
| Posted by: Petre May 24, 2011 03:16 pm | ||
There are no more KS-30 guns of 130mm, no the artillery units of the Navy. |
| Posted by: Vici May 24, 2011 07:55 pm | ||||
Yes, that's what I said too. The place mabadesc was talking about - next to Corbu - is here: 44.388820 28.719518 That's indeed the Capu Midia SAM and AAA range, Mircea is right. The one I was talking about - the former coastal battery - is this: 44.352847 28.690102 |
| Posted by: Radub May 25, 2011 08:59 am |
| The battery that used to "frighten the tourists" is closer to "Hanul Piratilor" (and indeed, it used to make a lot of noise ) The co-ordinates are 44.17'55N 28.37'07E There are also a four old wartime gun emplacements in the city itself, on the bluff close to the loghthouse, overlooking the harbour. The co-ordinates are 44.09'31N 28.38'00E Radu |
| Posted by: Petre May 25, 2011 05:32 pm |
| Batteryes of 130 were in three position : 2 Mai, Mamaia Sat (Hanul P.) and Cap Midia. |
| Posted by: ANDREAS December 17, 2013 11:42 pm |
| A new unit (it isn't new actually, but I didn't know about it before) is the 7th Tank Brigade "Muscel" from Slatina, who had 3 Regiments: 3rd Mechanized Regiment in Caracal, 27th Tank Regiment in Bascov and 1st Artillery Regiment in Slatina. I remember reading somewhere that this Brigade was unique in the Romanian Army, and was sometimes mistaken for a Division, some were claiming that Romania would have had three tank divisions: the 6th, the 7th and the 57th. |
| Posted by: Perun February 14, 2020 10:45 pm |
| Excellent work mate. Is there more |
| Posted by: amz January 19, 2022 09:46 am |
| Great thread, too bad it is so old and there are no recent replies but maybe I am lucky. Any chance to find somewhere the general TOE in the 80s? for example how was organized a Vanatori de Munte battalion? Also are there any info about a Vanatori de Munte division ? Back then were only brigades but as far as I know from memory, one would be transformed in division in case of war (the 2nd?) What units would have been included in a Mountain division? Also what was the TOE of paratrooper regiments? |
| Posted by: Victor April 17, 2022 06:53 pm |
| Although not what you asked about, a brief overview of the mountain troops during the 1947-1991 period: - 26 August 1947: only the 1st Mountain Division remains, after the 2nd Mountain Division is disbanded and merged with the 1st - 15 September 1948: the 2nd Mountain Division is reinstated, with the HQ in Sinaia. They actually had to reduce the number of border guards in order to respect the 100k troops limit imposed by the peace treaty - 1949: the mountain groups are transformed into mountain regiments: 1st Div (2nd, 5th, 7th) and 2nd Div (4th, 8th, 26th) - 3 October 1950: the OoB is changed to match the infantry division, with the exception that the number of battalions was smaller - 1 December 1951: the regiments are renumbered as follows: Div 1 became Div 57 (139, 235, 288th Mountain Regiments, 142nd Artillery Regiment), Div 2 became Div 14 (123, 202, 274th Mountain Regiments, 116th Artillery Regiment) - 1956: the 57th Division was disbanded and the 14th was transformed into the 14th Mountain Brigade (123, 202, 274th Mountain Battalions) - 1959: the 14th Brigade became the 2nd Brigade - 14 April 1961: the 2nd Brigade was disbanded - 14 October 1964: the 2nd Brigade is reformed in Brasov - 1969: the 4th Brigade is formed in Curtea de Arges and the 1st Brigade is formed in Bistrita - 1983: the 5th Brigade is formed in Alba Iulia In 1989 there were 4 mountain brigades (1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th), but I have no OoB info. Most likely the three battalion structure. The peak number was in 1991 with 6 mountain brigades: 7th formed in Petrosani in 1990 and the 61st in Miercurea Ciuc. Today, only two brigades remain: the 2nd and the 61st + one battalion in the 18th Brigade. |
| Posted by: Florin June 06, 2022 07:44 am |
| The same way in Nazi Germany both Wehrmacht and Waffen SS had units fully capable of undergoing war operations, also under Communist regimes, the regular army was paralleled by units with full military capability, but under the Ministry of the Interior, or to use words well known by Romanians, "Securitatea Statului" (State's Security, an equivalent of Soviet NKVD / KGB). So, I don't know if in the 1950's the Romanian Army had fully motorized units, but there were fully motorized units under "State's Security", at least from 1954, if not earlier. The military buildup in both regular army and in Ministry of the Interior continued in parallel until the end of the regime, so in December 1989, before that revolution, the ranks under the Ministry of the Interior were actually bigger in number than the ranks of the regular army for peace time (professional officers and NCO's, combined with conscripted soldiers). |