I think this is right.
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| WorldWar2.ro Forum > Romanian Army > Stalingrad: excavations near the city. |
| Posted by: proDigger April 25, 2010 01:50 pm |
| Hello to everyone! I am a new user on this forum. I'm from Stalingrad. In my free time I have been doing military archeology. I recently dug up a dog tag Romanian soldiers and other military items. !!! I need HELP!!! Help determine. It stripes on shoulder boards Romanian soldier, is not it? Help translate, and to determine the inscriptions on the dog tags. All found near Stalingrad. http://img717.imageshack.us/i/p1050966.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img718.imageshack.us/i/p1050968.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img718.imageshack.us/i/p1050945.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img717.imageshack.us/i/p1050950r.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img718.imageshack.us/i/p1050956x.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img691.imageshack.us/i/p1050960.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img691.imageshack.us/i/p1050964k.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: C-2 April 25, 2010 05:28 pm |
| Welcome to the forum. The dogtags are romanian. About the sb I don't know. |
| Posted by: proDigger April 25, 2010 06:32 pm | ||
Thank you for your reply. С-2, do you know what's on the surface of dog tags, name of military units? I would be grateful for any help. |
| Posted by: proDigger April 25, 2010 07:27 pm |
| I find confirmation of the fact that stripes on shoulder boards Romanian soldiers I think this is right. http://img12.imageshack.us/i/112hf.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger April 25, 2010 07:33 pm |
| more photos http://img686.imageshack.us/i/p1050899.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img686.imageshack.us/i/p10wy.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: C-2 April 25, 2010 09:11 pm |
| One of the coins is french. Read my pm. |
| Posted by: mabadesc May 04, 2010 02:30 pm |
| Prodigger, If you found items so personal like shoulder boards, rings, and dog tags, does that mean you also found human remains along with these items? If not with these particular items, do you generally run across Axis human remains during your digs? |
| Posted by: proDigger May 04, 2010 04:03 pm | ||
Thank you for your question. In fact, I work in the gullies and ravines. In these places were occupied by military headquarters, housing bunkers and tents. During the onset of Red Army, German and Romanian soldiers went to battlefields and died there. In the ravines and gullies remained only the military rubbish. Believe me, after 6 years of work in such places me very, very, very rarely come across the remains of soldiers. I want to show photos from the dig site. http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: proDigger May 17, 2010 02:05 pm |
| Hi A few of my findings. Romanian coins http://img692.imageshack.us/i/p1060228t.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img706.imageshack.us/i/p1060237.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img19.imageshack.us/i/p1060239f.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img43.imageshack.us/i/p1060241q.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img541.imageshack.us/i/p1060245.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger May 17, 2010 02:09 pm |
| It strips on the shoulder straps of the Romanian sergeant http://img208.imageshack.us/i/p1060282d.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img404.imageshack.us/i/p1060284e.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img40.imageshack.us/i/p1060281h.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger May 17, 2010 02:17 pm |
| Another Romanian dog tags found me near Stalingrad. They were lost soldiers in the ravine. I need help: if you know a military unit, or the name of the owner of dog tags please inform me. http://img99.imageshack.us/i/p1060251.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img59.imageshack.us/i/p1060253m.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img192.imageshack.us/i/p1060255r.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img199.imageshack.us/i/p1060260c.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img692.imageshack.us/i/p1060262j.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us http://img215.imageshack.us/i/p1060264z.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: C-2 May 17, 2010 06:02 pm |
| Nice finds! |
| Posted by: mabadesc May 18, 2010 05:09 am | ||
Hi ProDigger, Thanks for answering. You are right, since the bunkers were command posts, most of the finds were probably abandoned. Very nice finds, by the way. Good work! My only suggestion is for the dog tags you find. Since many of those represent dead soldiers (missing in action), you may want to notify the Romanian or German appropriate agencies, so that they can inform their families. You don't even have to send the dog tags, just send them an email with the name and ID number. There are a lot of families who still do not know and keep wondering what happened to their grand-parents during the war, so you would bring them peace of mind if they finally found out for certain that they died in battle. If you're concerned about your work, you can even send an anonymous email to these Romanian/German agencies with a list of names/numbers of dogtags you found. Otherwise, good finds! |
| Posted by: proDigger May 18, 2010 06:39 am | ||||
If you have an address email to choose sending data dog tags, write to here. I want to send the data that I have but I do not know where. Help me. |
| Posted by: proDigger October 17, 2010 11:43 am |
| Hi guys! Here again, I dug up interesting Romanian things. I do not know what it is! Tell me, please. This patch, I think it's from Romanian soldier. What does this patch mean? http://www.radikal.ru http://www.radikal.ru http://www.radikal.ru http://www.radikal.ru |
| Posted by: proDigger October 17, 2010 11:51 am |
| So I dug out an interesting thing. I do not know what it is! Tell me, please. I expect that this hat badge on cap, is not it????????????? http://www.radikal.ru |
| Posted by: proDigger October 17, 2010 11:55 am |
| My finds in this AUTUMN http://www.radikal.ru |
| Posted by: C-2 October 17, 2010 01:29 pm |
| Very nice finds! |
| Posted by: MMM October 17, 2010 04:35 pm |
Indeed they are! I think I could ask "what will you do with them now"? Sell them or what?  |
| Posted by: proDigger October 17, 2010 06:10 pm |
| Yes, maybe I'll sell these things. I need the money ... I am a student ))))))))) I ask your assistance in determining the membership of these things. That these things are meaningful? Who used them? |
| Posted by: 21 inf October 18, 2010 02:15 am | ||
The first piece on the left it's a rank sign, for "fruntaş" (aproximatelly private first class), from romanian army. It was weared on the epaulletes. The "V" shape items might be "wounded sign", issued for soldiers who were wounded in battle. I dont know if they are romanian, but if so, they were weared on the left arm on the uniform. The little cross looks orthodox and might be romanian, when I was a child in middle '70's, the romanian orthodox church was manufacturing this kind of little crosses, made from aluminium and they were almost the same design as in photo, if not identical. |
| Posted by: proDigger October 18, 2010 09:27 am |
| I think like that http://img33.imageshack.us/i/9c87b5ead76a2.jpg/ and http://img832.imageshack.us/i/p1030588g.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger October 18, 2010 09:37 am |
| Yes, I dug up the ID tag and the cross together. These things were lying on the bottom of the ravine, abandoned or lost a soldier. Soldiers from 91 Infantry Regiment 20 th Romanian division, this division was killed at Stalingrad. http://img375.imageshack.us/i/p1030599.jpg/ http://img706.imageshack.us/i/p1030618a.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger October 18, 2010 09:42 am |
| What do you think about the buttons? http://img193.imageshack.us/i/p1030608s.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger October 18, 2010 09:50 am | ||||
Do you have pictures of soldiers with stripes like that? http://img413.imageshack.us/i/9c87b5ead76a.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Dénes October 18, 2010 06:24 pm |
| All these uniform and personal items "lost" together in a ravine sounds very much to me like found in a grave. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: proDigger October 20, 2010 08:05 pm |
| Do you have any idea about this staff? |
| Posted by: RedBaron October 21, 2010 05:38 pm | ||
I second that... Where are these items found more exactly? Were there bones found also in these excavations? It all sounds very... strange... "excavations near the city"... I really hope someone is not digging up graves or things like that for a couple $. |
| Posted by: proDigger October 21, 2010 07:12 pm |
| Guys, I swear that these things are found free of the remains of soldiers !!!!! I am an honest person and do not loot! Look at the pictures where you see the remains of soldiers? They do not, I dig the military trash in the bottom of the ravine. I am very interested in uniforms of Romanian soldiers. I ask you to help me in identifying items found me. http://img258.imageshack.us/i/p107039153.jpg/ http://img411.imageshack.us/i/p107039156.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: ANDI October 21, 2010 08:05 pm | ||||
Don't want to take any part but finding personal items does not mean at all there are human remains around. One can find a lot of such items in a dump area or in a zone where heavy combat took place. Thinking that next to a coin or a dog tag seen on a picture must be a bone too is very childish. |
| Posted by: Radub October 22, 2010 08:38 am | ||
You know... coins or dog tags are not "rubbish".  Soldiers just don't throw them away or lose them without a care. Others also said before that Romanian soldiers were clumsy idiots who kept losing their dogtags. THAT is childish! It is also childish to expect us not to question such things. Radu |
| Posted by: 21 inf October 22, 2010 11:47 am |
| I wouldn't also like the idea that some people dig the graves of some romanian soldiers from ww2, take the items found and throw away the bones. But, unfortunatelly, there is no evidence that one who digs is automaticaly a grave digger. Sometimes not only romanian soldiers, but other nationalities too, throw away or lost military items (or even coins, which is by the way not a very much value and on front line means nothing, especially in another country, were special "ocupation" money were issued for legal transactions). Let's not forget that almost 80% of romanian army was illiterate in ww2 and a peasant give little or nothing to some items, not understanding the meaning of an item, or to the army, were they not even intented to be. Anyway, in some places maybe there were really some trash dumps, were army colected unnecesary items. To be a real "democratic", people must have the "prezumtia de nevinovatie", otherwise everything turns to a dictatorial system, with suspicion, paranoia and so on. Just an example, guys from Romania maybe know the case of live artilery shells found on iron scrap deposits from Romania. They were sold as "iron scrap" by citisens and accepted by the deposits and is hard to believe that some 80 kilogram artillery shells passed unobserved by those who buyed them .... It is not an unique case. Once again, I dont want to keep with one or another side, I just say that anything have to be demonstrated in order to be acused and charged as guilty. |
| Posted by: Radub October 22, 2010 04:20 pm |
| Here we go again... Romanian soldiers were not idiots or stupid peasants. It is true, we do not know anything about the bona fide of these people who show us their finds. We can only make logical assumptions based on what they show us. What we know is that "black diggers" are a scourge in Russia. We must also consider the following: one forlorn dog tag may be a sign of carelessness, a pile of dogtags is a sign of a tragedy. These guys find way too many dogtags. Radu |
| Posted by: MMM October 22, 2010 09:07 pm |
| There was also the Orthodox cross - and I doubt that a "believer", which is even more common in times of war, would carelessly part with his protective amulet/cross; not by his own free will, I'd say! |
| Posted by: Dénes October 23, 2010 08:05 am | ||
My point, exactly! Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: proDigger October 23, 2010 03:39 pm |
| Today again I dug up a Romanian dog tag, without body))))))))) before clean http://img716.imageshack.us/i/p1030601m.jpg/ after clean http://img530.imageshack.us/i/p1030622r.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: C-2 October 23, 2010 04:29 pm |
| Guys, I wanna make a point here... While I was in medical school 1985 we needed skulls. From the disection room ,we use to buy from the man in charge . The guys from germany came with very beautiful exempalrs. The price was 1000 DM and were bought legaly from the university of Dusseldof. The most interesting fact that all skulls were perfect.Especialy the teeths.No cavity,perfect aranged.All of them belonged to young people 18 years old males.All were from asians. Where would people get so many perfect skulls of so young people? I'll let your imagination work. Just let those people who dig in forgoten places alone. At least they have a hobbie,or need for money or maybe just bored. Not much left from dead bodies after 60 years.At least some artefacts are saved. |
| Posted by: Florin October 26, 2010 03:56 am | ||
I agree with you. I guess "proDigger" is trying to avoid hurting some feelings, and of course he would not mention the eventuality of removing belongings from corpses or skeletons. On a personal note, I found very interesting that one "tag" has "SUTU" printed on it, big and clear. It was always a rare family name in Romania, and I do not recall to have close relatives who ended dead on the Eastern Front. |
| Posted by: proDigger October 26, 2010 06:07 am | ||||
Thank You!!! Can you still know something about the other dog tags? |
| Posted by: Florin October 26, 2010 03:19 pm | ||||||
Maybe I was not clear when I mentioned the tag with "SUTU" stamped on it. My believe is that the tag was found as belonging to a corpse, but that corpse seems to not be a former close relative of mine, as far I am aware of it. On your behalf, "proDigger", you should not feel anger against me. In this kind of activity (your activity), even if you are saying the truth, you'll always face suspicion unless you are doing it under official supervision, or document you findings with a continuous video camera recording. |
| Posted by: RedBaron October 27, 2010 05:39 am |
| Nobody was accusing the guy or charging him as guilty. There was some logical concern about where these items can be found. And it still is... Oh come on, a hobby? Make me laugh... those items belonged to people, some of them maybe died wearing them... who knows. Many of us have military hobbies probably, though I doubt many of us would actually buy or even collect say - US Vietnam war dog tags... found in the jungle. One thing is to find panels of various vehicles or related parts, another is to constantly find and then sell (?) personal items of MIA (?) soldiers. But, whatever, he is free to dig up in valleys and do whatever, we can only voice concern since in there at one point he may find personal belongings of our relatives... I am sure then we would be thrilled to have those on eBay?  |
| Posted by: Radub October 27, 2010 08:35 am | ||
Actually... in Russia you need a permit to dig battlefields. Also... there are very strict permit regulations in place for metal detectors. Are these rules enforced? That is a different story. These people must think we are idiots to believe that there are no human remains in Stalingrad. In fact, this whole tread is a case of "s-a intalnit hotzu cu prostu" and some fall over themselves to prove they are "prostu". Radu |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR October 30, 2010 01:43 pm |
| Have you guys ever seen the Russian rocket attacks in the Battle for Stalingrad ? Have you ever seen the photos of the Day after? The ground was littered everywhere you walked. Later after the war, the ground eventually was plowed under and left or used for farming. Most bodies were never found. Blown to pieces. So it really does not surprise me that one would find many relics right on the surface of the ground today or even a few feet down. Finding a handful or several hundred dog tags in a command post is not uncommon either as they were collected by officers to send back home. When these post were overrun by the soviets, people left in a hurry leaving their belongings behind. However, it is suspicious when one finds so many items in one place due to the reputation Russians have for grave robbing for profit. Does that mean every Russian digger is a grave robber ? No. Some do have ethics. However, there are good and bad people in every country. One comment I will note about communist Russia at the time that puts them apart from Germany and Romania was we buried our dead, the Russians left theirs in the fields. There was a story about a forest in the Ukraine off limits to the public until the 1980's. When locals entered the forest, they found Russian bodies littered everywhere and still hanging from trees from were they were blown. |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR October 31, 2010 02:08 am | ||
Hat badge for Air Force ground troops. |
| Posted by: Florin November 01, 2010 05:55 pm |
| As a first impression, the link from YouTube attached below seems far away from this topic and from the objects shown here. But when I hear the words of this Romanian song (the music of the videoclip) I remember these findings, and when I see the photos shown here I remember the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rup9DPT0jZw |
| Posted by: ANDI November 01, 2010 07:18 pm | ||
What you said is valid for all battlefields, ww1 or ww2. I agree. And if there are some around who have never seen such a battlefield years after, I suggest them to make a trip and pay respect. Also, try to find out how many battlefiels in Romania were destroyed by heavy ploughing or forrest cutting, complete hills blown to pieces for mining purposes (and are still) with all the remainders or artefacts gone forever. |
| Posted by: proDigger November 01, 2010 08:07 pm |
| Romanian soldiers under Stalingrad http://img42.imageshack.us/i/bundesarchivbild101i218.jpg/ http://img221.imageshack.us/i/10760113r.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: Radub November 02, 2010 10:02 am |
| A few years ago I had the chance to speak to a man who worked as a bomb disposal expert for the Belgian Army whose job was to clear the remaining unexploded munitions from WW1 battlefields. He described how he discovered human remains everywhere he worked, many times crushed, mangled and scattered by the effects of the battle. According to him, every time human remains were discovered, no matter how small, they were carefully documented, all findings were photographed, mapped and tagged and then everything was given to a special committee who made sure that they were either returned to the relevant authorities of the countries that they belonged to or if they could not be identified they were interred with proper military honours. Sometimes, all they needed was a button to identify the soldier. Dog tags were treated as human remains - each dog tag was treated as if it was the "body of the soldier". A dog tag is not just a "piece of metal", it is not "rubbish" and it is not an "artifact". It is the mark of a man, a father/son/brother/cousin/a mother's tears, a lot of meaning squeezed in one token. This is called "respect". "Respect" should not be explained. Normal human beings should have an innate understanding of it. Look, this is not about what happens to soldiers on the battlefield or the reason why those soldiers were there in the first place. We keep hearing that "motherland honours its braves". Reading this thread, I see many so-called "sons of the motherland" treating their own ancestors as nothing more than "sources of artifacts" to be "mined" by unscrupulous people. By the way, I know where lots of Soviet and German soldiers are buried. I can show it to you on Google Maps. I also know the location of a 1877 Russian-Turkish War graveyard where a lot of Russian soldiers are buried. I can show it to you on Google Maps. When I was in school, we often looked after the monument of the graveyard, planted flowers, planted grass and looked after it in general. Would you like to go there to dig for a medal or a dog tag? Let those soldiers lie in their final resting place! Radu |
| Posted by: proDigger November 02, 2010 11:33 am |
| Radu, please show me on Google Maps!!! Would you like to go there to dig for a medal or a dog tag? Why not... |
| Posted by: Radub November 02, 2010 12:13 pm | ||
Start here: http://www.once.ro/ Radu |
| Posted by: ANDI November 02, 2010 07:23 pm |
| Well, it seems that some of the guys around here are taking this matter too personal, far beyond the serious (and semanthic) limit. I don't think is anyone here who is disrespecting the dead, no matter the side they fought. Polemic is useless. |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR November 03, 2010 02:35 am |
| The fact of the matter is that you can not change the thousands of people digging for war souvenirs everyday from France to Siberia. Too many countries, too few laws, too many cultures. Russians could care less about Romanian sentiment. They need the money. So how do you intend to stop them ? It's not going to happen. We may not like the source of the objects because we don't know if there was a body attached with the ID tag or the ID tag was found by itself. It is all speculation. Does that mean that every ID tag found in Russia was from grave robbery? Does that mean that every ID tag that comes up for sale was stripped from a body ? I don't think so. That does not mean that the activity of grave robbing does not exist. However, what ever the source of the ID tag, it is best to try and preserve the artifacts as historians and collectors. Now one can argue the point that being a collector only fuels the problem. OK, now I have stopped collecting as of today and I donate my collection to the museum. Guess what, the problem did not go away. It's still there and growing. So as a collector and historian, I say preserve the artifacts with respect. Collect for historical preservation and enjoyment and not for profit. Profiteers have no feelings about the objects they sell, only how much they can get for them. Perhaps someday, some of these items will make it back to a museum for all to enjoy and history will be preserved. At least there will be some kind of legacy left behind for future generations to enjoy. This is the best we can hope for. |
| Posted by: Dénes November 03, 2010 06:51 am | ||
The answer is in your sentence: "they need the money". If people stopped buying these artefacts with dubious background the diggers would not get the monetary benefit, so they would eventually stop doing it. It's just like trade with exotic animal parts, or alike. Money fuels their activity. This is the key for everyone who cares even a bit about such issues. Gen. Dénes |
| Posted by: Radub November 03, 2010 09:15 am | ||
That may be so, but some Romanians still care a lot. Those who care a lot have a valid point to make, just the same as (if not more than) those who could not care less. Radu |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR November 03, 2010 02:18 pm | ||||
For everyone who cares or not, the fact of the matter is that the activity is not going away. Collectors are not going to band together. The reality is that there is no ethics and religion between collectors and dealers. I just came from a collectors show in which a well known Romanian dealer grab an item out of a collectors hand who was looking to buy this particular item and threaten the person with a fist fight over the item claiming he saw it first only to put it into his upcoming sales list. This is reality folks. You have no control over it or what is happening in Romania, Russia or elsewhere. So the moral question really becomes this : If you really cared about the Romanians who perished, do you not want to keep the history and legacy alive through preservation and research of such items or would you rather see these items for sale on the streets, at shows and flea markets. |
| Posted by: KameradSchnürschuh November 06, 2010 05:24 pm |
| At least I'm not obviously involved in this things, it's a difficult matter, as a person who is not a Romanian as part ot Romanian people I can, without denying to say, and like Radub said on November 2nd: "A few years ago I had the chance to speak to a man who worked as a bomb disposal expert for the Belgian Army whose job was to clear the remaining unexploded munitions from WW1 battlefields. He described how he discovered human remains everywhere he worked, many times crushed, mangled and scattered by the effects of the battle. According to him, every time human remains were discovered, no matter how small, they were carefully documented, all findings were photographed, mapped and tagged and then everything was given to a special committee who made sure that they were either returned to the relevant authorities of the countries that they belonged to or if they could not be identified they were interred with proper military honours. Sometimes, all they needed was a button to identify the soldier. Dog tags were treated as human remains - each dog tag was treated as if it was the "body of the soldier". A dog tag is not just a "piece of metal", it is not "rubbish" and it is not an "artifact". It is the mark of a man, a father/son/brother/cousin/a mother's tears, a lot of meaning squeezed in one token. This is called "respect". "Respect" should not be explained. Normal human beings should have an innate understanding of it. Look, this is not about what happens to soldiers on the battlefield or the reason why those soldiers were there in the first place. We keep hearing that "motherland honours its braves". Reading this thread, I see many so-called "sons of the motherland" treating their own ancestors as nothing more than "sources of artifacts" to be "mined" by unscrupulous people. By the way, I know where lots of Soviet and German soldiers are buried. I can show it to you on Google Maps. I also know the location of a 1877 Russian-Turkish War graveyard where a lot of Russian soldiers are buried. I can show it to you on Google Maps. When I was in school, we often looked after the monument of the graveyard, planted flowers, planted grass and looked after it in general. Would you like to go there to dig for a medal or a dog tag? Let those soldiers lie in their final resting place!" that a dog tag, however to whom it belongs, and after excavation wherelse ever, and if you think about dog tags, might be the lessest thing a soldier would have might lost in nearly little cases...So, therefore, may be not nevertheless, any kind of dogtag found beyond the surface must have belonged to a killed individual person...but we could also argue about finding those dogtags without finding the rest/bones of the former remnant, is not that bad... But as Regal Uniform Collecter also said: "The fact of the matter is that you can not change the thousands of people digging for war souvenirs everyday from France to Siberia. Too many countries, too few laws, too many cultures. Russians could care less about Romanian sentiment. They need the money. So how do you intend to stop them ? It's not going to happen. We may not like the source of the objects because we don't know if there was a body attached with the ID tag or the ID tag was found by itself. It is all speculation. Does that mean that every ID tag found in Russia was from grave robbery? Does that mean that every ID tag that comes up for sale was stripped from a body ? I don't think so. That does not mean that the activity of grave robbing does not exist. However, what ever the source of the ID tag, it is best to try and preserve the artifacts as historians and collectors. Now one can argue the point that being a collector only fuels the problem. OK, now I have stopped collecting as of today and I donate my collection to the museum. Guess what, the problem did not go away. It's still there and growing. So as a collector and historian, I say preserve the artifacts with respect. Collect for historical preservation and enjoyment and not for profit. Profiteers have no feelings about the objects they sell, only how much they can get for them. Perhaps someday, some of these items will make it back to a museum for all to enjoy and history will be preserved. At least there will be some kind of legacy left behind for future generations to enjoy. This is the best we can hope for." It is at least a very complicated story at all... As I remember, here in Lower Austria they made many years ago, a new street and a canal, and then the found four bodies buried beside the street, first it was thought, that they are German, but after heavy investigations they knewe that those men were Russian...these men were buried on a near cemetary and the dogtags were sent to Russia... Treasurers will not count, where ever they search, which country they will oame from, on morale...If there are so called (historian) collecters, whose mindfulness is nothing more than money and their grievousness is about collectivables...it will ever happened...and the unburried body of the hopeless, lost in a war without winners, will after taking away those dogtags, forgotten beyond the end of the times... Sad enough to say, that taking away these last things of fallen soldiers without giving the place of the digout to official agencies...the next of kin are brought about every information at least! |
| Posted by: proDigger November 18, 2010 08:32 pm |
| I say thanks for the help to literate people. They showed me pictures, where I saw the mean things that I found. http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: Radub November 18, 2010 11:25 pm | ||
mean things... Ah well, at least you are honest.  Radu |
| Posted by: proDigger November 19, 2010 07:15 pm | ||||
 Maybe I'm not properly expressed my thoughts ... Important that good people understand my commitment to finding the truth ...  |
| Posted by: proDigger November 26, 2010 08:34 pm |
| Hello everyone! http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilot/serben.html Again I dug up a Romanian dog tag, a soldier was from 91 infantry Regiment. I also found a torn stripe sergeant. http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: proDigger December 14, 2010 02:06 pm |
| Dog tags... http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: proDigger December 14, 2010 02:10 pm |
| This is my little Romanian collections. Found in a ravine near Stalingrad. http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: REGAL UNIFORMA COLECTOR January 16, 2011 06:20 pm |
| Interesting video clips of Romanian excavation finds Stalingrad. I don't see too many bodies. All these items are being found on the surface. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwyAekQFWJs&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fTkfsCJBDE&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5rTT9qREo&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHjl01ZEwws&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJjNt2bRuk4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2dm9Uq0BaA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDtecRwOM78&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6XzP_agw6Q&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFMUJBHNgE&NR=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GKggBt2oeM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQLf7KrMF0o&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88zR-Ap5au8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKhcTeLw9Q&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDxQfBylKFU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ww5rTT9qREo&feature=related |
| Posted by: proDigger February 27, 2011 09:32 am | ||
This crappy video did this guy http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showuser=435 My work is like his work. But I dig mostly alone and did not use a metal detector. And all my finds from one place and from one ravine. |
| Posted by: proDigger March 01, 2011 05:16 pm |
| In mid-February, I dug up a new Romanian dog tag. I've never seen before the inscription on the Romanian dog tag like this The owner of the dog tag was one of Romania's 20 Infantry Division. This division was completely surrounded and destroyed at Stalingrad http://img638.imageshack.us/i/010209121337.jpg/ http://img146.imageshack.us/i/010209121405.jpg/ http://img809.imageshack.us/i/sdc10642c.jpg/ http://img806.imageshack.us/i/sdc10649e.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger March 03, 2011 04:03 pm |
| Hi everyone, Several years ago my friend dug up the Romanian dog tag. I could not decipher the inscription on the dog tag. I can not show this dog tag. This photo is reconstruction. http://img268.imageshack.us/i/sdc10649y.jpg/ http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc10642jg.jpg/ Uploaded with http://imageshack.us |
| Posted by: proDigger March 03, 2011 04:07 pm |
| Maybe you have an idea? What units had been a soldier? |
| Posted by: proDigger October 26, 2011 08:17 pm |
| Hi guys! Today I dug up the medal. I worked close to the village Gumrak. What can you tell me about this medal? Thanks for your opinion. http://www.postimage.org/ http://www.postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: ionionescu October 27, 2011 08:43 am |
| @proDigger, the medal you found is called ”BĂRBĂȚIE și CREDINȚĂ cu Spade”, 3rd class (bronze). |
| Posted by: Ferdinand October 30, 2011 05:45 pm | ||
on this dogtag is LASCU MIHAI...the name of the soldier....not M14a1 |
| Posted by: Cantacuzino October 30, 2011 06:38 pm | ||
Also the MATR TIOZ should be more like MATR XX02 ( with numbers not letters) |
| Posted by: proDigger October 31, 2011 09:35 am |
| Thank you for help!!! |
| Posted by: proDigger April 29, 2012 06:26 pm |
| New the Romanian dogtag .... in bad condition, sorry, I can not read the information http://postimage.org/ http://postimage.org/ http://postimage.org/ http://postimage.org/ |
| Posted by: mabadesc April 29, 2012 10:04 pm | ||
| ProDigger, Just wondering, do you dig at night? Those last couple of pictures look like they were taken after dark, illuminated by flashlight and/or flash. Also, you mentioned in an earlier post that you do not use a metal detector, but I see one in one of your pictures.
|
| Posted by: proDigger April 30, 2012 06:52 am | ||||
Hello. Yes, I have to dig in the dark. I'm late to finish work. My job prevents my hobby, I think that should quit the job)))) It was true that I did not use the metal detector. But this winter, I saved money and bought a metal detector. |
| Posted by: zero April 30, 2012 11:54 am |
| hy sebastien. |
| Posted by: mabadesc April 30, 2012 02:56 pm | ||
Ok, thanks, I was just wondering. |
| Posted by: Hummel August 26, 2012 05:24 pm | ||
It is always interesting to read your posts. A reasonable person should understand that the price of these things in the winter of 1942-43, the zero. That during the cold -30 -40 and when there is no food, no one thinks about dog tags and coins. All of these things were in the ravines, in bunkers, in the garbage. I dug in Kletskaya, Raspopinskoy, Logovsky, Melo Kletskaya, Bazki. There is a Romanian soldiers in the trenches, we dug them, and then gave the Germans (Volksbund). I imagine you in Stalingrad in the winter in January at the airport, you are hungry, you are cold. You throw into the fire, hoses, tires, tires. Because it is not a tree in the desert. Your face is black from the smoke. And you're going to think about all sorts of things like coins or medals? Think about it smart farmer from Romania. What do your fellow countrymen in '42 in a cold hut. |
| Posted by: Radub August 28, 2012 06:49 am |
| Let those people rest in peace. Radu |
| Posted by: mabadesc August 29, 2012 04:26 pm | ||
Radu, I agree with you. However, you or my saying so will not stop them from looking for battlefield finds. Given that fact, we have to hope they are telling the truth about not digging graves, and we can at least try to make the most of it by convincing them to share information. Earlier in this thread, I encouraged one of them to contact, even anonymously, the romanian authorities with the names and id numbers inscribed on the dog tags they found. They said they would. I reiterate my plea to ProDigger and others. As the decent person I trust you to be, please send the information you find to once@once.ro. Many people are still trying to find out about their grandfathers or other relatives they lost in the war. By sending the info you found on the dogtags, you can directly help some people or families heal their wounds. You would be doing a good deed at no cost to you. I am not trying to defend what ProDigger is doing. I am also not accusing him of digging graves because, in the absence of any proof, I have to take him at his word and give him the benefit of the doubt. Finally, and most important, I do not want to discourage him from posting images of dogtags or other ID's he may have found. Look, even from the pictures of dogtags he already posted on this forum, we can reconstitute the name, unit, and ID number (nr matriculare) of several soldiers. We can submit this to once.ro or MAPN ourselves. Perhaps they can get in touch with the families of the soldiers. |
| Posted by: Radub August 29, 2012 05:46 pm |
| These soldiers suffered enough in life, no need to desecrate and degrade them in death. All I am asking for is respect for the dead! It is not an unrealistic demand. Let these people rest in peace! Radu |
| Posted by: mabadesc August 29, 2012 10:24 pm | ||
I think you either missed my point entirely or do not care to address it. And to put it frankly, although I agree with your "request", it still is quite an unrealistic demand. Appropriate, yes. Correct, yes. Unrealistic? Completely so. I doubt that diggers in the former USSR will be moved by a demand made by a user on a romanian forum. On the other hand, since they will continue to go about their business anyway regardless of what you tell them, I would rather have something valuable come out of the whole affair: having them provide information on missing soldiers whose families still do not know the fate that has befallen them. |
| Posted by: Radub August 30, 2012 05:40 am | ||
I did not miss your point and I do not want to address it because you may not like my reply. But since you demand a reply here it is: When you buy artefacts removed from war graves by grave robbers, you are an "enabler" and even possibly an "accessory" to a crime considering that grave-robbing is illegal in Russia. I fail to understand what perverse pleasure you derive from buying a dead solder's dogtag. I fail to see your point when you say that these grave-robbers will not listen to me. "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing". I am doing something. I can protest! And I am not on my own! Let those people rest in peace. Radu |
| Posted by: mabadesc October 08, 2012 06:00 pm | ||
RaduB wrote:
I just saw your reply. I truly hope you are using the general "You" and not referring to me when talking about buying artefacts. If you did refer to me personally, then please watch your words as they constitute libel and show ignorance on your part. However, I hope that you used the general "you" and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. As a piece of friendly advice for the future, it is more appropriate to employ "one" when generalizing: ex: " I don't see the pleasure ONE derives from buying...etc..etc..". I have never bought WWII artefacts, have never shown interest, and have absolutely no desire to do so. Anyone who has bothered to follow this forum knows that - and I joined it just after it was created, quite a few years ago. Having said that, if you take the time to read the thread, you will notice that my comments were meant to encourage those "diggers" to report dog-tag ID numbers to the authorities, even on an anonymous basis, so that families of missing casualties get some closure. I have never encouraged anyone to dig. Ideally, there should be no digging, I agree. However, since it does happen, unfortunately, and since the diggers couldn't care less about your protest, convincing them to report dog-tag serial numbers to sites such as once.ro sounds like a good idea. It is making the best out of a bad situation. And yes, we can protest against digging (I also find this activity repulsive) and try to get dog-tag serial numbers information from the diggers at the same time for the benefit of countless families who may still be trying to find out what happened to their loved ones. These actions are not mutually exclusive. Encouraging a digger to inform once.ro of his finds is quite different from encouraging somebody to dig or to buy his findings. This is a pretty simple, clear statement. I have never encouraged anyone to dig and am repulsed by this activity. You don't have to agree with me. I respect your opinion, although I do not understand it or agree with it. However, please with more careful with the phrasing of your statements in the future. I will not stand by to have my reputation or intentions distorted or put into question by anyone. P.S. Victor/Dragos, you are the founders of this forum and we have collaborated on a few occasions since you started: please take note of Radu's post as well as my reply. |
| Posted by: Radub October 08, 2012 10:04 pm | ||||
Mabadesc, Yes, I meant "one", and you know it! Libel? How? I have no idea who you are and your real name was not used. This is a forum and on forums people discuss things. Feel free to disagree with me. I expect to be allowed to disagree with you too. If you are "on my side" as you claim, maybe you should make it look less like you are fighting me. And yes, irrespective of how much it may irritate... one... I will continue to protest when grave robbers desecrate the war graves of Romanian soldiers. Radu |
| Posted by: mabadesc November 07, 2012 04:48 pm | ||
Radu, I honestly did not know who you were referrring to, had I known it, I would not have been so troubled. Thank you for clarifying that you were referring to the general "you", I am very relieved that it was just miscommunication on our part. Sorry if I may have overreacted. With regards to the actual discussion - absolutely, I am just as opposed to digging graves as you are, and I understand your stance on the matter. As to disagreeing with each other, it does not irritate me in the least. I enjoy debating with well-informed, educated forum users such as yourself and hope to continue doing it. Having said that, let's close this issue. No hard feelings on my part, I hope there are no hard feelings on yours, as well. Best wishes. |